Primary Schools (Hansard, 13 February 1995)

§ 1. Sir David Knox
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what was the figure for 1978–79, at constant prices.

§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Redwood)
In 1979–80, the amount spent per pupil in primary and nursery schools, at 1993–94 prices, was £1,086; the amount spent per pupil in 1992–93 was £1,657. Figures for 1978–79 are not available. That represents a massive 52.5 per cent. increase in real terms, despite the fact that, in practically every year, the Labour party has said that the amount was being cut.

§ Sir David Knox
Does my right hon. Friend agree that those are impressive increases in expenditure per pupil in primary schools in Wales? Is he satisfied that those increases have been accompanied by comparable increases in standards?

§ Mr. Redwood
In some cases they have, in some cases they have not, which is why my hon. Friends and I have been busy urging all schools in Wales to raise their standards, especially those where results are still disappointing. We have made a massive commitment, through votes in the House, to ensure more money for local government in general and for education in particular. Much extra money is being spent and we should like to see further progress with standards.

§ Mr. Simon Hughes
I welcome the general figures, but I reserve judgment about recent years' increases in expenditure. Will the Secretary of State turn his attention to one specific matter affecting the education of primary school children in Wales? Large parts of Wales now have access to S4C, Welsh-speaking television, but not to Channel 4, including its educational programmes. That is a big issue in Gwent, including in Islwyn. [Laughter.] It is true and it is clearly accepted in the House. Will the Secretary of State take steps to ensure that all educational programmes are available to all primary school children throughout the Principality?

§ Mr. Redwood
I cannot imagine why the hon. Gentleman is interested in Islwyn at the moment—I wonder whether he has ever been there or campaigned there. The issue is one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for National Heritage and I shall ensure 646 that he sees the question and the point behind it. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that some people are worried about access to both television channels in parts of Wales.

§ Mr. Ron Davies
I suspect that the party of the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes)—the Liberal Democrat party—has a slightly greater interest in Islwyn than the Secretary of State's party. Given the increase in school numbers of a further 8,000 pupils next year, why has the Secretary of State cut expenditure on education? He has made a complete shambles of the local government settlement. He is browbeating education authorities to spend their balances when each and every one of them is doing just that to protect their education services. He is bullying schools about their balances when all they are doing is following the Government's instructions.
Is it not now clear that enormous damage is being done throughout our education service in Wales—teachers are protesting, pupils are protesting, parents are protesting, governors are protesting and politicians are protesting? Is it just the Secretary of State's arrogance that makes him believe that everyone else is wrong and he alone is right?

§ Mr. Redwood
That long speech fell flat. In 1991–92, there were 26,633 teachers in Wales and in 1993–94 there were 26,752—an increase. Every year, the Labour party—through its councils and in the House—has threatened big cuts in teacher numbers. I am not cutting expenditure. I asked the House to approve increased money for Welsh local government and it did so on 8 February. The hon. Gentleman cannot produce a single shadow pound over and above my settlement.

§ Dr. Spink
Does my hon. Friend accept that what matters most is outcomes in education? Does he agree that outcomes in education in Wales are exceptionally good, particularly compared with those in England? Is that not a result of the methods used in Wales, which are often not child-centred or project teaching but whole-class teaching and more traditional methods? Would he recommend those methods to some of our English schools?

§ Mr. Redwood
I join my hon. Friend in welcoming traditional methods. I think that too much child-centred learning spoils the child and spoils results. I fear, however, that we have a long way to go in Wales, as in England, in raising standards generally. The pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools has remained the same—22.3—since 1988–89, so there is no evidence of massive cuts in teachers. I hope that governors support them, and that they all get on with the job of raising standards.