PROVISION FOR NORTHERN IRELAND (Hansard, 21 April 1995)

§ The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Janet Fookes)
With this it will be convenient to consider the following: Amendment No. 5, in clause 5, page 3, line 10, at end insert—

§ Mr. Wicks
The procedure was easier than I thought, Dame Janet. Perhaps I will apply to be a Clerk of the House one day, if I can guide us through the rest of the Bill with your help.
The purpose of the amendments is to ensure that the policy objectives relate to Northern Ireland and to the Scilly Isles. I was surprised to hear that we needed a special clause and procedures to relate the objectives of the Bill to the islands, but I now understand the need. The islands do not have a separate council but have their own social services authority and, if our objective is that the carers of Great Britain should benefit from the Bill, it must include carers on the Scilly Isles.
The other point of the amendments is to consider the case of Northern Ireland. When we first set out on this legislative journey, we hoped that carers there would be covered by the Bill. We discussed the matter with colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office and corresponded with the Minister. The Northern Ireland Office view is that, because of the legislative history and situation of Northern Ireland and the fact that there are no conventional social services authorities there, but health and social services boards, we need to approach the matter differently.
I shall therefore ask hon. Members to remove Northern Ireland from the face of the Bill. I am confident that the Government and the Northern Ireland Office think that the Bill's objectives can be fully related to Northern Ireland in other ways. The Under-Secretary with responsibility for health and social services in the Northern Ireland Office, the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Moss), wrote to me on 17 April. Following a meeting that he had with officials from the Carers National Association, he said: I promised them that I would write to you confirming the Government's commitment to ensuring that Northern Ireland will keep in step with the rest of the United Kingdom on the assessment of the needs of carers. This I can do unreservedly. Later in the letter he said:
I can assure you that without resort to further legislation should, hopefully, your Bill complete its Parliamentary stages, the Boards can be directed, and will be, to carry out assessments of carers' needs, as local authorities in England and Wales will be required to do by your Bill. I can also assure you that in this context carers will include parents of disabled children. 1.15 pm
My reading of that letter is that the Government and Northern Ireland Ministers are committed to ensuring that the benefits of the Bill apply, albeit in a different way, to carers in Northern Ireland, and I accept that assurance. I shall therefore ask colleagues to approve the amendment, which removes Northern Ireland from the Bill. Having 472 met at a meeting in Bryson house in Belfast carers from all over that part of the United Kingdom, I came away with a strong feeling that, in Northern Ireland too, carers were at the heart of community care and we had to find ways—I believe that we have—to include them within the scope of this social policy development.

§ Ms Rachel Squire
I welcome the assurances given by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Wicks), but I must place on record my concerns about community care provision generally in Northern Ireland and its exclusion from the Bill.
I am aware that the legislative framework and the structure responsible for delivering community care in Northern Ireland are different, with the combined health and social services boards and trusts. However, if the Government are genuinely committed to carers and community care, they must ensure that the necessary steps are taken to introduce rights for both carers and those who are cared for, which do not yet exist in Northern Ireland. Why should the community care needs of the people of Northern Ireland be treated differently from those of people in the rest of the United Kingdom?
I understand that the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Moss), has given assurances that the Secretary of State will issue directions with statutory force to the boards, but I have not been impressed by the community care record so far of Northern Ireland's boards and trusts. Only yesterday, we saw the closure of Cairns house, which ignored the rights and needs of the frail and elderly, their relatives, families and staff; I hope that the Under-Secretary will ensure that strong action is taken so that the policy intentions of the Bill are applied in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Bowis
I confirm that that is the case. It is as recorded in the letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Moss)—which the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Wicks) read out. The intention is that this provision will apply to Northern Ireland in the same way.

§ Mr. Wicks
We have had a brief but useful debate. It has confirmed that the intentions behind the Bill will apply to Northern Ireland. I again ask hon. Members to vote no, to remove clause 3 from the Bill, so that later we can vote, I hope, in favour of a new clause.