Points of Order (Hansard, 31 October 1994)

§ Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Legal aid is a matter for the Lord Chancellor's Department. On Question 31, there were three supplementaries. The first might be judged a smear. You, Madam Speaker, ruled the second out of order. The third was a lengthy question from the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), who asked about civil legal aid. As the question went on, I accused him of bias and of moving away from the point.
If that was interpreted as a comment on your ruling, Madam Speaker, I apologise unreservedly. However, it is very exasperating when a right hon. Member is allowed to ramble on, away from the point, so that right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House are held up when they try to deal with points relating to your own statement. Nevertheless, I apologise if my remarks came out wrong.

§ Madam Speaker
I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Of course I am always willing to learn, but I do not think that I need any lessons from the hon. Gentleman. However, if he thinks that there are lessons that I can learn from that exchange, perhaps he will use the Order Paper to put down a substantive question.

§ Mr. Peter Bottomley
Further to that point of order—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I understood the hon. Gentleman, and I certainly accept his apology, if he has apologised to me. That matter is ended now, and I would like it to finish right away. I have made my point.

§ Mr. Bottomley
In my point of order, Madam Speaker, I plainly explained what was in my mind, and I unreservedly withdrew my remarks if they were interpreted as criticism of the Chair. If I may respectfully say so, the remarks that followed were not called for.

Hon. Members
Order!

§ Madam Speaker
Order. All through Question Time, I have my ears riveted to what is being said, but I can also hear what goes on in other parts of the Chamber. I think that I heard clearly, but I accept the right hon. Gentleman's apology, which I believe is what it was, if there was any misunderstanding. I think that the matter should be left there.

§ Mr. John Hutton (Barrow and Furness)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Have you received any request for a statement to be made in respect of the proposed acquisition of—Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering Ltd. in my constituency by GEC or British Aerospace? Six thousand jobs in my constituency are completely dependent on VSEL, and my constituents would welcome the opportunity for the Government to clear up any confusion about whether they would block either of those bids for VSEL.

§ Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland)
Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. Is it not extraordinary, when many thousands of jobs are at stake, not only at Barrow-in-Furness but on the Clyde at Yarrow, when 1214 there are hugely important matters of national interest in warship building, and the taxpayer's interest facing the prospect of a single provider and a single purchaser—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman must come to his point of order for me. We are not in debate.

§ Dr. Cunningham
Is it not extraordinary that the House is denied the opportunity to question Ministers? Will the Leader of the House assure us that a statement will be made to the House of the Government's intentions? [Interruption.]

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I can respond to those points of order. I should prefer that they had been put to me correctly. I have not received any request by a Minister to make a statement on these matters.

§ Mr. Oliver Heald (Hertfordshire, North)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Would it be in order for the Committee of Privileges to start a separate inquiry, in addition to your own, into the behaviour of the editor of The Guardian so that—[Interruption]

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I am on my feet.
As I think the hon. Gentleman and the House knows—if they do not, let me make it quite clear—I will always look at matters of privilege, which the hon. Gentleman is now raising, but they must be put to me in writing. I hope that any other hon. Member who wishes to raise such matters will first put them to me in writing, so that I may look at them and respond properly.

§ Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Are you aware that Westminster underground station has been closed for most of today, first because a scaffolding pole fell on to the platform, and now because it has flooded? Obviously that is to the inconvenience of hon. Members and others, but there is also concern about the amount of work that is being undertaken in that area.
We heard over the weekend that Big Ben, apparently, was trying to relocate itself—though somewhat slowly—from the building, and, of course, we know that Members of Parliament are very capable of digging themselves into holes, but I would not like us to fall into a hole dug by someone else. Can you call for a report from London Underground and those responsible for the construction that is going on, so that we know that the highest safety standards are being adhered to and that corners are not being cut on the grounds of expense?

§ Madam Speaker
I have been informed that, shortly after 9 am, a metal object fell through a glass roof on to the walkway leading to Westminster station. The station was closed and work on the Westminster station section of the Jubilee line extension suspended while a full inquiry was carried out. I understand that London Underground is working to reopen the subway under Bridge street and Westminster station at the earliest opportunity.
So far as Big Ben is concerned, no excavations have begun. If there are any, we shall be monitoring them, and let me tell the House that, as I am the one person who lives under Big Ben, I shall be the first to see that everything is in order in that area.

§ Mr. Roger Gale (Thanet, North)
Further to your statement, Madam Speaker. In addition to his unsavoury 1215 relationship with Mr. Al Fayed, which I understand goes back rather further than the House or the public have been led to believe, the editor of The Guardian, who has misappropriated paper from the House, has forged a letter purporting to come from a Minister of the Crown and has sought to impersonate a senior civil servant in the Ministry of Defence. I have written to you, Madam Speaker, to ask that Mr. Preston be brought to the Bar of this House. Will you please arrange for that to be done?

Hon. Members
Hear, hear.

§ Madam Speaker
Order. If the hon. Gentleman had looked at his mail, he would have seen that I have replied to him. I signed the letter before I came to the House this very afternoon. I will take no further points of order on this matter. I made it quite clear to the House, in a very carefully worded statement, what I was about to do, and I shall not have anything further to say until I receive the Sergeant's report. That is the way in which we proceed in this House.

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
When the debate takes place later today, there will be a need for some hon. Members to declare their interests, as usual when debates take place in the House. In view of the developments over the weekend, when it was reported that 51 Tory Members of Parliament have benefited by having a tax write-off because they invested in the Lloyd's gambling den and lost money, will they have to declare that interest? Will they have to declare their interests in the debate this afternoon?

§ Madam Speaker
All hon. Members are fully aware of their obligation to the House. If there is any interest, they must declare it at the beginning of their speech.

§ Sir Nicholas Bonsor (Upminster)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The House will rise for a short period in four days' time. Can you give us an undertaking that the Serjeant-at-Arms will report to you before it rises, so that these serious matters can be examined before we leave?

§ Madam Speaker
As the House knows, the rising of the House is not in my hands. I am working every minute of the day on the issue.

§ Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Have you received any request from a Minister in either the Scottish Office or the Department of Transport to make a statement to the House about the grounding this morning of yet another factory vessel in my constituency? I ask particularly in the light of Lord Donaldson's recommendation in May that, before the onset of winter, the United Kingdom's Fisheries Departments should state that they would not entertain an application for a transshipment licence unless the master showed adequate insurance and a minimum of safety standards.

§ Madam Speaker
I have not been told that a Minister is seeking to make any statement on the issue raised by the hon. Gentleman.

§ Sir John Gorst (Hendon, North)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You made it perfectly clear that you were already examining the question of Mr. Preston. May I ask you whether it is within the competence of the Select 1216 Committee that has already been established to include an inquiry into that case in its terms of reference, without a further reference of a complaint from the House?

§ Madam Speaker
The answer to that is a clear no. As I tried to explain earlier—perhaps I did not make myself clear—if there are references of that nature, they must come to me in writing for examination in the first instance.

§ Mr. Peter Thurnham (Bolton, North-East)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Further to your statement, should not the editor of The Guardian have asked you whether he could come here—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. The House is now carrying things too far. I have made a carefully worded statement, but I believe that hon. Members came here fully determined to put a point of order irrespective of whether I had made a statement. I ask them to respect the proceedings of the House, and to look very carefully at the statement that I have just made. I think that we should now make some progress on the important debate that is to follow.