HC Deb 01 November 1994 vol 248 cc1535-6

Lords amendment: No. 49, in page 53, line 11, leave out ("subsection (2) or")

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.—[Mr. Jonathan Evans.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss also Lords amendments Nos. 50, 51, 60 and 158.

Mr. Nigel Griffiths

There is a strong feeling among Labour Members that where people are involved—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. It could be good news.

Mr. Griffiths

It is nice to see that so many people have been able to return to our proceedings from the bar. [Interruption.] I think that a lot of Conservative Members are lawyers.

We are dealing with a legal matter and the contracting out of legal services, and it is important that the Opposition put on record their objection to the contracting out of certain aspects of legal services that we think should firmly be in the public service.

The Government's practice of privatising elements of the legal and prison services has not met with stunning success or with much public support. The Minister will claim that the roles of a number of employees are merely administrative, are ripe for privatisation and should be handed over to the private sector. However, as the peers in the other place pointed out, many of those people deal with aspects of life that are important and private to members of the public, to businesses involved in insolvencies and bankruptcies and to politicians involved in challenges to local election results. They also deal with highly confidential matters that relate to children in family cases and that are in the public interest.

Some matters with which administrators deal are far too important to be contracted out. That is the reason why we oppose the proposals.

Mr. Jonathan Evans

The amendments respond to particular concerns that were expressed about the status of courts and tribunals under part II of the Bill. The Government take the view that courts and statutory tribunals should not be or be seen to be susceptible to any outside pressure or influence.

In recognition of concerns about the adequacy of court lists and the absence of any exclusion for tribunals, the Government introduced the amendments, which make it clear that any exercise by an office holder of the jurisdiction of any court or tribunal that exercises the judicial powers of the state could not be the subject of an order under clause 58 and could not by that means become susceptible to contracting out.

I hope that that reassures hon. Members and I commend the amendments to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords amendments agreed to.

Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to certain of their amendments to the Bill: Mr. Simon Burns, Mr. Richard Ottaway, Mr. Brian Wilson, Mr. Nigel Griffiths and Mr. Jonathan Evans; Three to be the quorum of the Committee.—[Mr. Jonathan Evans.]

To withdraw immediately.

Reasons for disagreeing to certain Lords amendments reported, and agreed to; to be communicated to the Lords.