Points of Order (Hansard, 23 May 1994)

§ Mr. Alfred Morris (Manchester, Wythenshawe)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. At column 1080 of the Hansard published today of Friday's proceedings on the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill, at the foot of that column, after the paragraph beginning "For example", there is an intervention wrongly attributed to me, which is very damaging as to my standing in relation to the Bill. I have had a word with the Editor of Hansard about the mistake. It is one, I feel, that should be very urgently corrected, for reasons that will be obvious to anyone who reads it who was here.
The other point, briefly, is that you, Madam Speaker, will know that there has been a demonstration by disabled people here today. I was not informed of the reason—

§ Mr. John Marshall (Hendon, South)
What is the point of order?

§ Mr. Morris
I have raised a point of order about a mistake in column 1080 and I am asking for any guidance you, Madam Speaker, can give disabled people in answer to the question, "How can we possibly win, what more can we do when we have a parliamentary majority for the Bill?" I know it is very difficult, Madam Speaker, but there is very strong feeling among disabled people that they are not getting anywhere by the parliamentary process.

§ Madam Speaker
Of course I have to answer to the House and not to any individual or group outside it. The right hon. Gentleman is really asking how he can pursue the issue and I quite understand his and many others' frustrations about this. May I suggest to him that he has to use the usual channels or approach the Leader of the House about further time for this; or there are the recess Adjournment motions later this week—he might like to attempt it through that method.

§ Mr. Morris
On the Hansard point, Madam Speaker.

§ Madam Speaker
On the Hansard point, I think that the right hon. Gentleman has in fact corrected it himself and I will certainly follow through to see that it is corrected.

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Earlier today, as you may be aware, at about 11 o'clock, a number of disabled persons wanted to get into the House of Commons, and I agreed that I would see them and take them round Parliament. They wanted to go through the main entrance. They were stopped by the Serjeant at Arms, who said that he was not prepared to see them trying to get up the steps. He then told me that they could go round through the big carriage gates. They decided to do it as an act of symbolism—to crawl on their hands and knees against what has happened to the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill. When they got to the carriage gates, although they had been promised access that way, the gates were shut in their faces.
It is one thing for the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People to kick away the crutches of those disabled people, but I think that it is an affront when, in parliamentary terms, they are not allowed to go through the main entrance and they are not allowed to crawl their way through the side entrance either. When will you, as Speaker 22 of the House, ensure that the Serjeant at Arms allows disabled people to have the same rights of access to this building as anyone else?

§ Madam Speaker
The hon. Gentleman and the entire House are fully aware that there is access for disabled people through New— [Interruption.] Just a moment; I am speaking. This is very serious. There is right of access to the House through New Palace Yard for disabled people. I believe that this morning some disabled people were unfortunately encouraged by some Members of the House to crawl— [Interruption.] Order. Listen to what I have to say. They were encouraged to crawl up the steps at St. Stephen's entrance, for the benefit of the media. They were informed that they could approach through New Palace Yard. If those gates were not open, I will make it my business to find out why. That is the entrance for disabled people. There are facilities there to help them enter every level of the House. I believe that the dignity of the disabled should be respected as much as that of any individual Member of this House.

§ Ms Liz Lynne (Rochdale)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Now that she has returned from Malawi, has the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) said whether she is prepared to come to the House to apologise for misleading the House about who drafted the amendments that were tabled in her name to the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill? Six and a half million disabled people will suffer because of her actions.

§ Madam Speaker
The matter is still under consideration. I made representations to the hon. Lady. The letter went to Malawi. I expect to hear from her before this day is out.

§ Mr. Peter Thurnham (Bolton, North-East)
Further to the earlier point of order, Madam Speaker. I came through the New Palace Yard gates at 2 pm. There were several disabled people there. The gates were not shut. I understood from the police that they could have come in two at a time with the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) if they so wished, but he was nowhere to be seen.

§ Mr. Robert N. Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will recall that 11 years ago I, too, introduced a Bill to outlaw discrimination against disabled people. On that occasion, rather similar tactics were used against my Bill, with the support of the Government. However, Lord Longford introduced a similar Bill to the House of Lords and came within 12 votes of being successful. If a noble Lord took up the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) and it was successful, would it take precedence over other private Members' Bills entering the House?

§ Madam Speaker
I do not give procedural advice of that nature across the Floor of the House. The hon. Gentleman might do well to seek that advice from the Public Bill Office.

§ Mr. Tom Clarke (Monklands, West)
Further to the point of order of my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris). May I point out that in the proceedings two weeks ago last Friday my right hon. Friend is recorded in Hansard as intervening in the speech of the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) to correct him when he referred to my right hon. Friend as an hon. Member. Everyone knows 23 that my right hon. Friend is one of the most modest Members of the House and that he would never have said such a thing. I said it, and I am greatly surprised to be told by Hansard that, although the error can be corrected in the bound volume, it cannot be pointed out in the meantime. Is it possible for a future edition of Hansard to put the record straight?

§ Madam Speaker
The hon. Gentleman may have to refer that to the appropriate Committee.

§ Mr. Gordon McMaster (Paisley, South)
Further to the earlier point of order by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I have dealt with that—very adequately, if I may say so. It had better be a new point of order, otherwise I cannot hear it. Is it further to that point of order?

§ Mr. McMaster
It is a new point of order, Madam Speaker. As you will be aware, the Accommodation and Works Committee is currently considering the topic of access to the Palace by disabled people. Last week, I gave evidence on behalf of the all-party disablement group to that Committee. Although I understand what you said in your ruling about the dignity of disabled people, one of the points that was made strongly in the Committee last week—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. Matters that are dealt with in Committees are not matters for me. It is not a point of order for me. If the hon. Gentleman has a point of order, I will hear it, but I am afraid that we are getting into a debate. What happened in Committee is not a matter for me.

§ Mr. McMaster
I am sorry, Madam Speaker, but the signals that the Chamber sends out this afternoon will be important to that Committee. Surely it should be set out that disabled people—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. That is not a point of order for me.

§ Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Is there any way in which amendments could possibly be tabled earlier? I ask the question because on 11 March, as you know, the Second Reading of the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill was passed with 231 votes in favour and none against. In Committee, for which I know you are not responsible, not one Government amendment was tabled. When the Bill came back to the House on Report, more than 80 Government amendments had been tabled, although not in the name of the Government, to ensure that the Bill to help 6.5 million disabled people was killed off. Is there any way in which an indication could be given previously so that people would know that the Government were determined to kill any attempt at legislation to help the disabled?

§ Madam Speaker
The hon. Member himself can be extremely helpful in that matter. He is a member of the Procedure Committee which is already examining the procedure for private Members' Bills. I have submitted a reference to the Committee myself.

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
On a point of both order and, to be candid, frustration, Madam Speaker. How come questions properly placed on the Order Paper—including one of substance to the Prime Minister—for Thursday have now suddenly evaporated by alchemy from the Order Paper? Did not it used to be the case that when questions were accepted for a Thursday—even if the dates of recesses were changed—they were taken, and the House then proceeded to the Adjournment debate? Was not that the situation?

§ Madam Speaker
The hon. Gentleman must have missed a motion which was on the Order Paper and an announcement which I made a few days ago. If he would like me to direct him to the motion, I will do so. There was a motion on the Order Paper, and the hon. Gentleman may well have missed it.

§ Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The baying from the Conservative Benches during points of order was entirely inappropriate, because there is genuine anger outside about what happened to—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I need a point of order, and not a long statement.

§ Mr. Foulkes
I have been asked by people outside to ask you whether there is anything that you or the House can do in relation to the code conduct of Ministers. People outside cannot understand how a Minister can secretly draft amendments, not tell the truth to the House and still continue as a Minister.

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I have been through this a number of times, and I think that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer. I have given him the answer already. [Interruption.] Order. If the hon. Gentleman listens, he might like to tell whoever is interested that the entire procedure for private Members' Bills is now before the Procedure Committee.

§ Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I know that you take the opinions and decisions of the House seriously. Will you confirm that you will take seriously, and would like to see acted upon, the decision made by the House on a motion brought in by the hon. Member for Exeter (Sir J. Hannam) that opportunity should be found to discuss and vote on the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill?

§ Madam Speaker
That is a matter for the House, and not for the Chair.