§ Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes)Madam Speaker has decided that all the amendments on the Order Paper are selected for debate but that any that are to be moved will be moved formally at the conclusion of the debate.
§ 7.2 pm
§ Sir Fergus Montgomery (Altrincham and Sale)I beg to move,
That Mr. James Cran, Mr. Charles Hendry, Mr. Andrew Hunter, Sir James Kilfedder, Mr. Eddie McGrady, Mr. Ken Maginnis, Mr. Jim Marshall, Mr. Peter Robinson, Mr. Clive Soley, Mr. Richard Spring, Mr. John D. Taylor, Mr. David Wilshire and Mr. Mark Wolfson be members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.I should like to pay tribute to the hon. Members who serve on the Committee of Selection. We may disagree from time to time, and we often have to debate issues, but we never descend into matters of personality, and we always maintain a sense of humour. I believe, indeed. that most members of the Committee would agree that it is a pleasant one on which to serve.The setting up of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was always going to be a difficult matter. I do not think that any hon. Member in any part of the House would disagree with that assertion. I realise that it was impossible to accede to the requests of all the political parties involved. The minority parties are normally entitled to one place on departmental Select Committees, but there are exceptions. On the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs a Scottish nationalist Member takes one of the Labour party's places, and on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs Plaid Cymru does likewise. The situation in Northern Ireland is different, and it is very complex. Northern Ireland has 17 constituencies. The seats are held by Members from four different political parties, none of the three major political parties on the mainland being represented. Herein lies the crux of the problem.
The unique character of Northern Ireland's parliamentary representation meant that the usual formula would have to be adapted. The Committee of Selection took into account the views of the Committee on Procedure, which had looked at the issue twice in recent years. In its 1990 report on the working of the Select Committee system, the Procedure Committee envisaged that a future Northern Ireland Select Committee would consist of 16 members, and the suggested break-down was eight Conservatives, three Labour members, two Ulster Unionist representatives, one Democratic Unionist, one Popular Unionist, and one representative of the Social Democratic and Labour party. This was revised by the Procedure Committee in December last year, when a membership of 13 or 15, which the Committee thought would be procedurally acceptable, was suggested. It was also observed—and this is a very important point—that it seemed sensible that all Northern Ireland political parties represented in the House should be represented on the Committee.
It has always been the case that the Government of the day can expect to have a majority on Committees of the House. That is not in dispute. On 9 March 1994, the House, by 324 votes to 221, approved the setting up of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and decided that it should consist of 13 members. The Committee of Selection 854 was then faced with the task of setting up a Committee that would give all Northern Ireland parties representation, would accommodate the Opposition and would guarantee a Government majority—not an easy task. The difficulties involved in meeting all these criteria must be readily apparent to all hon. Members.
§ Mr. Don Dixon (Jarrow)If the Government wanted to have a majority on the Northern Ireland Select Committee, as they have on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and every departmental Select Committee, they could have implemented the Procedure Committee's recommendation that there should be seven Government members, two Labour members and one from each of the political parties in Northern Ireland. That would have been the simplest way of dealing with the matter. Why did the Procedure Committee decide that the Select Committee should have 13 members rather than 16, with the Labour party's representation reduced by one but the Ulster Unionists' representation remaining at two?
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryI shall, in fairness, deal with those points in due course. The hon. Gentleman's basic point is that the Labour party should have three seats rather than two.
The composition that we decided recognises closely the Procedure Committee's original proposal, which was that the membership should consist of six Conservatives, two Labour representatives, two Ulster Unionists, one Democratic Unionist, one Popular Unionist and one SDLP representative. In 1990, the Procedure Committee recommended a Committee of 16. On that basis, the Conservatives have lost two places, having come down from eight to six, and the Labour party has lost one seat, having come down from three to two.
To ensure full participation by all the Northern Ireland parties, the Government were prepared to allow their majority to be maintained by the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder). Although there is no formal link between the Popular Unionist party and the Conservative party—the hon. Member for North Down certainly does not take the Conservative whip—the hon. Gentleman is a consistent supporter of the Government in the Division Lobbies. I suggest, in fairness, that if the boot had been on the other foot—if there had been a Labour Government and a Labour Chairman of the Committee of Selection—the Labour party would probably have taken six seats and that one seat would have gone to the SDLP, which, while it does not take the Labour whip, has a link with the Labour party and agrees with it in respect of many things. I believe that the Labour party would indeed have relied on the SDLP for its majority. It goes without saying that there can be no guarantee that the hon. Member for North Down, or, for that matter, any other hon. Member, will always support the Conservative side of the Committee.
In reply to the other point that the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) put to me, I have to say that we considered it right that the Ulster Unionists should have two places on the Committee. After all, it has more than twice as many seats as any other Northern Ireland party, and it has just over half of the Northern Ireland seats in the House. This is a Northern Ireland Committee, and it would be nonsensical to fill it with members from the mainland. The whole purpose of setting it up is to bring Northern Ireland Members together to discuss issues that are of 855 concern to their constituents. Surely it is logical and reasonable for the Ulster Unionists to expect greater representation than the other Northern Ireland parties.
§ Mr. DixonHow, then, does the hon. Gentleman justify the fact that the Government have a majority on the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs even though there are very few Scottish Conservative Members and a majority on the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs even though there are very few Welsh Conservative Members?
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryThe hon. Member has been in the House a long time and knows as well as I do that the Government have a majority. I do not know whether he was a Member of Parliament between 1974 and 1979, when the Labour Government lost their majority in the House. The then Opposition—the Conservative party—always accepted that the Government must have a majority on Committees. That has always been accepted.
§ Mr. Andrew Bowden (Brighton, Kemptown)In view of the point that the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) has just put to my hon. Friend, I must say that the Northern Ireland situation is entirely different from those in Scotland and in Wales. We know that it is a very delicate and difficult political decision. There are exceptional problems in that area and one feels desperately sorry for the people who live there. Therefore, the Committee of Selection had to look at Northern Ireland in a different light compared with Wales and Scotland. That should deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon).
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryI am grateful to my hon. Friend. I do not argue that our nominations are a statistically accurate reflection of the composition of the House. It is clear that the Labour party would ordinarily expect to have more than two places. However, I had hoped that Labour, like the Government, would be prepared to accept less in order to ensure that every Northern Ireland party was represented on the Committee because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Bowden) pointed out, special factors apply to Northern Ireland.
Earlier today, we had a debate on the business of the House, when the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) was rather unfair in his criticism of the Committee of Selection. The House made its decision on 9 March. I had hoped to set up the Committee on 16 March. The other Northern Ireland parties had all let me have their nominations; I did not have to ask for them. That is the usual procedure. However, there were no nominations from the SDLP.
The Clerk of the Committee, who was very efficient and hard working, spent the whole of the morning trying to find an SDLP Member. As we had no nominations from the SDLP, I deferred the setting up of the Committee for a full week. We set up the Committee in the following week when we had the nominations from the SDLP. There was no intention on our part of being unfair to the SDLP; we wanted to ensure that it had representation on the Committee.
§ Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down)I take cognisance of the veracity of the hon. Gentleman's statement. Nevertheless, it does not alter the fact that my party was not contacted about the proposed meeting or the 856 subsequent meeting. I made contact because I had heard rumours in the House that there was a meeting taking place. There were no lines of communication. There was no direct contact with me or with any other members of my party to enable us to be aware that nominations were required for a meeting on a particular date. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take that as a genuine expression of the truthful position.
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryThere is an hon. Member who represents the minority parties in the House—he does that extremely well. When the Committee was set up, he relied on the parties concerned to get their nominations to him. That happened. The nominations came to the hon. Member or to me. All the other Northern Ireland parties got their names in on time. Because we wanted to be scrupulously fair, the meeting deferred for one week the setting up of the Committee so that the SDLP could be represented. I hope that the hon. Member for South Down understands that.
§ Mr. DixonI apologise to the hon. Gentleman for continuing to intervene. Is it not a fact that at the first meeting of the Committee of Selection to set up the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs the only thing that we decided was the composition of the Committee—the number of members on the Committee from each political party? After we decided that, the meeting was adjourned for a week to allow names to come in. The SDLP could not put in any names because it did not know who would be on the Committee. Indeed, the Labour party did not put in any names because we were still arguing about whether we should have three or two positions on the Committee. At the first meeting we talked about only the composition; we talked about the names at the second meeting. There was no need to look for SDLP Members—they would not be represented because we had not decided on the representation.
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryAt the beginning of my remarks, I said what a pleasant Committee the Committee of Selection was. Perhaps I should rethink what I said in the light of all the hon. Gentleman's interventions. I must refresh his memory. The reason why the setting up of the Committee was deferred for one week was to get the names in. That is true.
§ Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh)I shall refresh my memory. I believe that the week that the hon. Gentleman is referring to was the week of the last Northern Ireland Question Time, during which my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) and I were present. If my memory needs further refreshing and it was the previous week, that was the week that we debated the renewal of the prevention of terrorism Act when my hon. Friends the Members for South Down and for Foyle (Mr. Hume) and I were present. At least we should put that on the record, and the record will show that that is right.
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryThe hon. Gentleman has made his point. When I was explaining the procedures of the Committee, all I was trying to say was that it is up to the parties concerned to get their nominations in on time. As the House had decided that we should set up the Committee, it is funny that the other Northern Ireland parties understood that and got their names in.
§ Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)I am not sure whether this hard-working hon. Member from another party looks after Northern Ireland and the minority parties because I have been consulted three times in the whole Parliament by that hon. Member. That should be put on the record as well.
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryA lot of things are being put on the record tonight. All I can say is that, in all the speeches that I have made in the House, I have never had so many interruptions.
There are five amendments on the Order Paper. If all five of them are carried, the Labour party would have seven members on a Committee of 13.
§ Mr. Norman Hogg (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth)Hear, hear.
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryThe hon. Gentleman says "Hear, hear". It may be very pleasant for the Labour party. Certainly it would not be pleasant for the Tory members who will be kicked off the Committee if the amendments are carried, and it would not be fair on the Northern Ireland members. We should be happy to see more Northern Ireland members on the Committee because the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs is there to look after their interests. I simply say to the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mr. Hogg), whom I always find agreeable, that when he is asking for more members, he should remember that this Committee is for the needy, not the greedy.
§ Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian)The hon. Gentleman has expressed an important principle—that there is a strong case for having more Northern Ireland members on the Committee. Would he extend that principle to Scotland and Wales? Can we have more Scots on the Scottish Affairs Committee?
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryIf the hon. Gentleman checks, he will find that there are 11 members on both the Scottish Affairs Committee and the Welsh Affairs Committee. On the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, we have made a great concession—there are 13 members because Northern Ireland is represented by four separate political parties. The number of members of the Committee was increased to 13 to meet that.
§ Sir Michael Neubert (Romford)Would it be true to say that the intervention of the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) overlooked the crucial fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery) mentioned earlier that the two major mainland parties will not be represented in Northern Ireland and that is what makes it a different Committee from the Scottish Affairs Committee and the Welsh Affairs Committee?
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryI agree with my hon. Friend, who is a valuable member of the Committee of Selection. He is right that that is one of the difficulties that we had to bear in mind all the way through.
We thought of all sorts of different arrangements for the composition of the Committee. In fairness, most people would agree that, no matter what we decided, there would still be aggrieved hon. Members in the House. Several Tory Members desperately wanted to serve on the Committee, but we could not place them on it because we had only six places to fill. We voted on the six hon. 858 Members whom we thought were the best choices. That was a great disappointment to some of my hon. Friends, and some of them have had harsh words to say to me since then.
Given the peculiar circumstances, the composition that we eventually presented to the House is as fair as it was possible to be to all the parties involved. Therefore, I hope that the House will agree with and accept our nominations.
§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)I beg to move the amendment—
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerOrder. The Speaker has instructed that the amendments will be taken formally at the end of the debate but it is perfectly in order for hon. Members to discuss them now.
§ Mr. McNamaraAt the end of the debate, I shall beg to move the amendments standing in my name and that of my hon. Friends.
Let I say at the outset to the Government Members whom we are suggesting should be taken from the Committee that we do not attack them in any personal way. Everybody admires their sterling qualities—the problem is that they are overshadowed by the sterling qualities of my hon. Friends, whose names we have proposed.
The House will have noted that we have not put up a candidate against the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter). That is because he is a class apart—from which stream, of course, is a question for the House to judge. However, it is not true, as has been maliciously suggested, that he is regarded by the Opposition as being a member of the Ulster Unionist party. That cannot be true, as he sits on the Government Benches. However, he is the chairman of the Northern Ireland Back-Bench committee and it seems correct not to oppose his membership of the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee.
The House will have noted that the composition of a Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee is not merely a procedural parliamentary issue. It has significant political consequences. Until recently, the Government were prepared to acknowledge the wider implications of a Northern Ireland Select Committee, and accepted the need for cross-party support for it. The Northern Ireland Select Committee is not viewed in Ireland simply as an administrative issue—it has a profound symbolic significance.
A Northern Ireland Select Committee is an integral part of the Ulster Unionist party's political agenda and is seen as an integrationist measure. The fact that the Government now support the new composition is seen as evidence of their own political inclination, and belies the Government's self-proclaimed aspiration to be merely a facilitator to the agreement.
§ Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)Will the hon. Gentleman explain why having one Select Committee looking after most of the issues affecting Northern Ireland is integrationist when having six is not?
§ Mr. McNamaraHad the hon. Gentleman graced our earlier debates, he would have known of the symbolic importance which is attached to the Select Committee, in particular by the Ulster Unionist party. It is part and parcel of its agenda, which includes altering the legislative procedures in the House and having a devolved assembly 859 if it can have one without a broad Irish dimension. It is part and parcel of a political party's agenda, and of what was regarded as being strand 1 of the talks—
§ Mr. McNamaraMay I answer the question, and then I will be only too delighted to give way to the hon. Gentleman? It is part and parcel of strand I of the talks which are now beginning to be unravelled.
§ Mr. MaginnisWas it the hon. Gentleman's political philosophy that it was his task and that of his party to frustrate the wishes of the largest political party in Northern Ireland and merely to act as a spokesperson for one of the smaller political parties? There appears to be little logic in his argument that, because the Ulster Unionist party believes that there should be accountable democracy, he should set out almost single-handed to defeat it.
§ Mr. McNamaraThe hon. Gentleman flatters me if he thinks I have such power.
It is the policy of the British Labour party to work for a united Ireland by consent. It follows that any measure that is seen as being integrationist in any way or as tightening the bands between this island and Northern Ireland is something to which we are opposed. It is because of that—
§ Mr. McNamaraCould I finish my point? We oppose it because we regard it as an integrationist measure.
§ Mr. NewtonMy hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) asked a good question, to which he has not so far had anything that amounts to an answer. How can it be more integrationist to have a single Select Committee focused on the Northern Ireland Office than to leave the affairs of that office to be treated as part and parcel of the activities of the Agriculture Committee, the Environment Committee, the National Heritage Committee, the Transport Committee and dozens of others? That appears to stand reasoned argument on its head.
§ Mr. McNamaraIf the right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate the symbolic significance in Northern Ireland of the establishment of the Select Committee, he should not be establishing it. That is why it is being fought for. It is not being fought for to provide better administration for the Northern Ireland Office. The Leader of the House himself has said that half a dozen Committees are quite capable of doing it any way. All that the Government are doing with this Committee is increasing bureaucracy, and I thought that the Government were against increasing bureaucracy.
§ Mr. Bowdenrose—
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerOrder. Before the hon. Gentleman gets truly launched, may I point out that we are concerned with the composition of the Committee and not its functions or whether or not it should be set up?
§ Mr. McNamaraI agree with you entirely, Madam Deputy Speaker. The points are being put to me by hon. Members, and I am trying to facilitate the debate.
§ Mr. BowdenIt is important that the hon. Members whom we are to put on the Committee tonight—because as you say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is what we are discussing—are more than a symbol. Surely they must form an important working group of hon. Members looking in detail at some of the serious problems which Northern Ireland is facing. Is it not a mistake just to call the Committee symbolic, as it is much deeper and more important than that?
§ Mr. McNamaraWith the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think that it is. The Ulster Unionist party, in a reference that it made to the press in a briefing paper, spoke of the symbolic importance of the Committee, and of restoring responsibility back to Stormont. Those are not my words but those of the UUP. That is the significance of the Committee and that is why its composition happens to be of particular importance.
The Government have claimed that they have no selfish strategic or economic interest in Ireland, but they have now allowed a selfish, petty and short-term party interest to dictate their policy towards the establishment, and therefore towards the composition, of a Northern Ireland Select Committee. The political dimension in the composition of the Committee is clear for all to see.
The negative impact of the creation of the Committee is compounded by its proposed composition. The Government are still simply replicating majority rule. Indeed, the Ulster Unionist party said in a briefing paper that the Northern Ireland Select Committee is already harking back to the Stormont regime. The population of Northern Ireland is now split roughly 43 per cent. to 57 per cent., and yet there has been no attempt to ensure that the minority community has a fair representation on the proposed Committee.
The Social Democratic and Labour party received twice as many votes as the Democratic Unionist party and 10 times as many as the Ulster Popular Unionist party, and yet it is to receive exactly the same representation on the Committee. A party that stands in just one constituency and receives just 2.5 per cent. of the votes cast in Northern Ireland—the UPUP—is to get one place on the Select Committee, and possibly even the chairmanship. That gives a completely new definition of the word popular. The SDLP has been allocated one place on the Select Committee, despite receiving 23.5 per cent. of the votes cast in Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. Peter Bottomleyrose—
§ Mr. McNamaraWith the greatest respect, there is only one and a half hours for the debate. The hon. Gentleman may wish to speak, and the Northern Ireland parties probably wish to contribute. I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman.
§ Sir Fergus Montgomeryrose—
§ Mr. McNamaraI am prepared to give way to the Chairman of the Select Committee.
§ Sir Fergus MontgomeryThe hon. Gentleman complains bitterly that the hon. Member for North Down(Sir J. Kilfedder) has been given a place. May I remind him that the Government could have taken seven places, and 861 only took six? The hon. Member for North Down was given a place from the Government side, which did not affect the placing of Opposition Members.
§ Mr. McNamaraThe hon. Gentleman's point would lead me to an argument that I shall advance later. The Leader of the House said that the Government
should expect to be able to command a majority"—[Official Report, 9 March 1994; Vol. 239, c. 345.]on the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee, yet they have accepted that there should be only six Conservative places on the Committee. That is because they consider the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) to be an honorary Tory. That may be an unfair thing to say about the hon. Gentleman, but, as the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery) said, the Government have conceded that the circumstances of Northern Ireland are peculiar, which is what we argued to the Secretary of State.We suggested that both the Government and the Opposition should be prepared to surrender seats to the Northern Ireland parties. We proposed that the Government should have five seats and the Labour party four, with the remainder divided between the Northern Ireland parties. Instead, the Government allotted only two seats to the Labour party, despite the fact that it has 270 Members in the House. That is an outrageous distortion of the principle of proportionality on which the Select Committee system is supposed to be based. That gross misrepresentation cannot possibly be justified, even though the Select Committee on Selection agreed that my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) should press for three Labour members, despite our first proposal to the Secretary of State.
In Northern Ireland, such gerrymandering serves as a reminder of past abuses of power. The decision to allocate the seats in such a biased way damages the Government's reputation in Ireland and thereby damages the peace process. It is vital that, in any future inter-party talks, there is no question of the Government entering discussions with a hidden agenda, which the composition of the Committee implies that they have.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has repeatedly claimed that the Government have no blueprint or master plan, yet the decision to establish the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee with such an unrepresen-tative composition casts serious doubts over that assertion. Many have been left with the suspicion that the Government's squalid deal with the Ulster Unionist party has meant a series of concessions to its integrationist agenda, including changes in legislative procedures and the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee.
The biased composition of that Committee aggravates the matter still further because it means that the Conservative and Unionist party and Ulster Unionist party will have an overwhelming majority of 10 to three. Yet the Government had pledged that there would be no return to majoritarian institutions in Northern Ireland. Indeed, the Secretary of State said in speech on 20 January:
there can be no going back to a system which has the allegiance of, and is operated by, only one part of the community.
§ Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East)The hon. Gentleman has just made me a Tory.
§ Mr. McNamaraI can understand the hon. Gentleman's unhappiness about such a description, but it would be fair to say that, on most matters regarding 862 Northern Ireland, he would tend to support the Unionist and Conservative and Unionist position rather, than that of the Opposition. However, I am prepared, in the interests of fairness, to make it a majority of nine to four.
Such a cynical short-term policy as the Government have adopted represents a betrayal of the people of these islands. In Britain and Ireland, the overwhelming majority long for a political settlement that will bring peace to these islands. That is not helped by the composition of the new Select Committee.
Such a political settlement must inevitably include some form of devolved power-sharing assembly to govern Northern Ireland and the decision to grant the UUP the Select Committee reduces still further any possibility of agreement on a devolved assembly with a broad Irish dimension.
The Ulster Unionists have always managed to secure a large measure of their integrationist agenda. As a result, there has been no incentive for them to compromise and accept a form of devolved Government, with adequate recognition of national rights and aspirations. A devolved assembly in Northern Assembly should establish committees to monitor the government of Northern Ireland. That should not be done by a Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee at Westminster dominated by the Conservative and Unionist alliance. Those are reasons why we are concerned about the composition of the Committee.
I know that the fact that we have tabled five amendments has caused concern to Conservative Members, no more so than to the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, who is the Chairman of the Selection Committee. He is terribly afraid that, if all the amendments were carried, the Conservative party would be left with only the hon. Member for Basingstoke on the Committee. Let me assure him that once we have carried the first two amendments, we shall cease to push for any more.
§ Mr. Bob Dunn (Dartford)On behalf of the whole House, I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee on Selection, my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery), for his contribution to the debate.
It is important to remind ourselves why we are here and of the purpose that led us here. We are here to appoint Members to the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee. Our duty is to respond to resolutions and votes of the House. First, I should like to place on record, as is the fashion, that the Government by convention and precedent always have a majority of seats on Select Committees. Secondly, the House voted that the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee should have 13 members. Thirdly, the Select Committee on Procedure, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery) also recommended that all Northern Ireland parties should be represented on the Select Committee.
The Selection Committee had to try, therefore, to reconcile two competing tensions. We had to accom-modate a Government majority in the Committee of 13 members and to accommodate all the parties represented in Ulster. That would pose a difficulty for the Government if they stuck with the concept of a majority. For that reason and that reason alone, the Selection Committee decided to give up one of the Government's places on the Select Committee to the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. 863 Kilfedder), thereby allowing the Selection Committee to accommodate the recommendation that all parties should be represented on the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee.
I became slightly confused by the comments of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) on the concept of representation by proportion of population and membership of this House. After all, many parties stand for election to the United Kingdom Parliament and do not win seats. The logic of his argument is that those people who vote for parties that are not represented in the House should, by some process of osmosis, be represented on Select Committees. We can appoint only Members of this House to Select Committees. We have no power to do anything else. The way in which our recommendation has accommodated all the parties in Northern Ireland is the right way forward.
It is not for us to argue the pros and cons of a Select Committee for Northern Ireland. The House has voted for it. In the same way, I presume that the House voted for Select Committees for Wales and for Scotland. Equally, I could argue that my county of Kent, which is represented by 16 Members, should have a Select Committee. I do not intend to do so; it would not be wise or sensible. As Kentish Members we can make a major contribution to the work of the Conservative party. The logic of the argument of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North has to stop somewhere, and it must stop here tonight.
The important point is that the Selection Committee is abiding by a requirement of the House. Hon. Members should, therefore, think carefully before voting for the amendments that have been tabled by the official Opposition. They would destroy the work of the Selection Committee, which is so ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale.
§ Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South)I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and to clarify one or two misunderstandings. In the light of the comment by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) on the 53 per cent. to 47 per cent. division of Northern Ireland's population, I was perhaps fortunate to be told this morning that two people from Northern Ireland told the papal nuncio in Dublin that the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and I were their pastors. I make it abundantly plain that in this House we represent a broad cross-section of the people in Northern Ireland, not the sectarian head count that has been set forth here tonight. We represent the constituents who sent us here.
I also happen to be one of the few Northern Ireland Members who have served consistently on a Select Committee of the House. Although we did our best to include Northern Ireland, we could do it only on occasions. Other things had to be done. To criticise the setting up of a Select Committee for Northern Ireland on the ground that there are six already and it is an integrationist approach, fails to recognise that the Members whom we appoint tonight to that Select Committee will have the task of scrutinising intimately the Northern Ireland Office, which will remain, irrespective of what happens in a devolutionary settlement in Northern Ireland.
864 In that context, I have been perplexed about why this elongated debate is taking place. I remember only two other occasions when the membership of a Select Committee necessitated a Division. Speaking for the Ulster Unionist party, when we found out that there were so many seats on other Select Committees for Members from Northern Ireland we could have put up four names, but we put up two names to allow the other parties in Northern Ireland to be represented. In the broader pattern of Select Committees, Northern Ireland parties have been under-represented as a result of the failure of parties to put forward representatives. Therefore, I welcome the fact that a Committee that is to monitor—scrutinize—the Northern Ireland Office will have a broad cross-section of members from Northern Ireland.
Perhaps it will be worth while, since other hon. Members have been refreshing memories, if I put on record the fact that although the Select Committee system is reputed to have taken its inspiration from the American Congress, Lord Glenamara recalls in his book, "Whip to Wilson" that Lord Wilson advocated such an idea in the 1960s. It is fascinating that Labour Front-Bench Members are using delaying tactics to prevent it from being set up now.
It is also worth remembering that it was under the Labour Administrations of Lords Wilson, Callaghan and Foot that the system was developed, before being brought to fruition in 1979 under Lord St. John of Fawsley, then Leader of the House in the new Conservative Government.
When we bear in mind the fact that, in 1970, the Labour party demonstrated a clear understanding of the need for an accountable democracy, there seems to have been some change in pattern. Admittedly, that Administration were kept in power by the Ulster Unionist party and colleagues, who supported them—you will recognise this sentence by now, Mr. Deputy Speaker—
so long as they governed in the best interests of the United Kingdom in general, and of Nonhem Ireland in particular".That Labour party presided over Northern Ireland's great democratic change in 1970—the redrawing of constituency boundaries, which gave fairer representation to the people of Northern Ireland. It was implied tonight that the people of Northern Ireland, especially the Unionists, had been guilty of gerrymandering, but it is interesting to note that it was pressure from a Northern Ireland Assembly and the Members of the House which led to the Speaker's Conference that ultimately granted us better proportional representation in the House and which allowed more representatives of the nationalist community to come to the House. We have to keep those things clearly in mind, even though I admit that some people might disagree with it.What is wrong with the motion tonight, which purportedly would give a better distribution of the seats? Like the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), I have nothing against the nominees from the Conservative party, or the nominees from the parties in Northern Ireland and I believe that the Labour party has a right to nominate its own representatives.
We shall all discover that, despite newspaper headlines that seek to portray a scenario such as "Tory-dominated Committee savages Government", the task of a Select Committee, irrespective of what party its members come from, is to scrutinise the affairs of the Department and the Government and, in the light of the evidence, to bring a report to the House. I do not doubt that in the chemistry of 865 a Select Committee there will be movement; there will be changes of opinion. I should like to think that hon., as well as right hon., Ladies and Gentlemen would go with the evidence rather than simply being in a partisan mood.
I find it difficult to understand how Members of the House who support accountable democracy can listen to the arguments made tonight by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North. According to a recent speech by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North in the House, he does not object in principle to the Select Committee system but does object to such a system being extended to Northern Ireland. What nonsense! We see here at work a republican agenda, which seeks to separate Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom.
Amazingly enough, it was Mr. Haughey and later Mr. Reynolds who, publicly and privately—although perhaps privately they said some things differently to different people—said that it was the responsibility of the House to decide how it scrutinises the Departments of its own Government; it was not a matter for the Dublin Government or anyone outside the House.
Tonight I am happy to support the motion.
§ Mr. MaginnisI do not want to quarrel with my hon. Friend at this stage, but it is a misnomer to describe the agenda of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) as a republican agenda. Tonight it was obviously a bitter, sectarian agenda, as we heard from the figures that he misquoted. It is the type of performance that we hear from bitter third generation expatriates and we would not even hear it from representatives of the nationalist community.
§ Rev. Martin SmythMy hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) makes his own point, but I say to him that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North wishes to remain British but seeks to deny the people of Northern Ireland their right to have the affairs of their Province scrutinised by their Parliament.
Does it not seem strange when we contrast the efforts of the shadow Northern Ireland spokesman to thwart the democratic process with the amazing conversion of, and support for, the British judicial system shown by the Sinn Fein president, Gerry Adams? Mr. Adams has seen the light and has chosen to throw himself, with a bag of British taxpayers' legal aid gold in his pocket, on the mercy of British courts in an effort to regain the right to peddle word of his organisation's terrorism throughout the United Kingdom.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse)Order. The hon. Gentleman is going rather wide of the motion. Will he get back to it?
§ Rev. Martin SmythI have no difficulty getting back to it, but the comparison still stands and the people of Northern Ireland know the very point. It is amusing that for—
§ Mr. MallonI thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Before he finishes his interesting speech, will he take the opportunity at least to distance himself and the Ulster Unionist party from the remarks that were made about the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North and, indeed, about many right hon. and hon. Members of the House who are first, second and third generation Irish and have no 866 trace of sectarianism about them, as my hon. Friend has not? I think that it is incumbent on that party to distance itself from that remark, in the interests of fairness.
§ Rev. Martin SmythIn the interests of fairness, I will say to the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) that he has made his point, as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McGrady) made his point. As far as I am concerned, as I am speaking on behalf of my colleagues here, I support the motion and I trust that the House stands firmly behind the recommendations of the Committee of Selection. I also pay tribute to the representative of the minority parties, the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood), who consults those who should be consulted.
§ Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)I was amazed—perhaps I should not have been—at the speech by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara). He put forward a series of arguments about why the House should not have a Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs and why we should not be voting Members on to that Committee.
It was strange because the hon. Gentleman talked about strand 1 of the talks held in Northern Ireland. He was not present at those talks and does not know what he is talking about. The basis of the strand 1 talks was to find a way to govern Northern Ireland and, once that was settled, to decide what relationship the Government or Administration would have with Dublin. To suggest that the Government are now breaking their pledge on strand 1 and that they should not be democratically accountable to the House through their own Select Committee is ridiculous. I do not know how the hon. Gentleman feels about strand 1, but it has nothing to do with whether the House has a Select Committee. At the strand 1 talks, everyone except the SDLP agreed that the Select Committee was a matter for this House and that the House should do for Northern Ireland what it does for every other part of the United Kingdom. That shows that the hon. Gentleman's argument was in tatters before he started his speech tonight.
The hon. Gentleman went on to say that, because the Government have said that they have no selfish, strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland remaining within the United Kingdom, they should not set up the Select Committee. The Select Committee will look at the present government of Northern Ireland. Will not the people of Northern Ireland be allowed to scrutinise their own Government as those in every other part of the United Kingdom do?
The hon. Gentleman argued that, because the Government have said that they have no selfish, strategic or economic interests in keeping Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom if the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to remain within it, Northern Ireland should cease to have the same sort of government as the rest of the United Kingdom. He also argued that we were breaking with the status quo, but we are only establishing it. Every other part of the United Kingdom has that privilege.
Why should not we be allowed to have the Government scrutinised and to look at how they govern Northern Ireland? Why should not we be allowed to ask how the 867 money is spent? Why should not we be allowed to question civil servants, who have a hundred times more power in Northern Ireland today than they ever had—
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse)Order. Will the hon. Gentleman get back to the establishment of the Committee rather than arguing for it?
§ Rev. Ian PaisleyI should have thought, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the members of the Committee were the right people to find out what this matter is about and to scrutinise it. I am responding to the various suggestions made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North. Those must be answered, for the people of Northern Ireland will say to us—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. This debate is about the constitution of the Committee. If the hon. Gentleman will stick to that, he will be in order; otherwise, he will not.
§ Rev. Ian Paisley:Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North also mentioned some percentages. I noticed that he convenient-ly left out the fact that, in the European elections, the Ulster Democratic Unionist party took 30 per cent. of the vote. He forgot all about that. He also discovered a statistic that the Roman Catholic population now represents almost 50 per cent. of the people of Northern Ireland. It is amazing that he puts up those arguments in recommending—I am coming to the point, Mr. Deputy Speaker—that more Labour party members should be on the Committee. If this Committee is so wretched and bad and should not exist, the hon. Gentleman should ask to give up his party's two seats on it and let other Northern Ireland Members get on the Committee to do the work in which they are interested.
The hon. Gentleman's argument is ridiculous. May I say on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland that this debate is a microcosm of what has happened in Northern Ireland throughout the years. No progress can be made because certain people will not let us, except if it is progress towards Dublin and a united Ireland. Tonight's debate simply holds up the people of Northern Ireland from having the same rights as people in the rest of the Kingdom.
We have argued about the basis of the Committee. My party has no seat on any Select Committee in the House because we were never offered a seat. I was thrown off the Select Committee on Agriculture and the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) was put on it. He had to be taken off the Agriculture Committee because he did not attend, whereas I was a good attender. I do not know who is responsible for the Committee of Selection, but my party has never been approached to have a member on any Select Committee. I raised that matter with the Prime Minister and he said, "Oh, we'll see about it." So I could have a grouse tonight and say that, although my party has three Members in the House, we sit on no Select Committee.
I pay tribute to the Chairman of the Select Committee, who did a difficult job. What would be better than to have every party represented? After all, at the talks we have a party that has no members in the House—the Alliance party. Yet because one Member has his own party—the UPUP—and has been returned to the House, the Labour 868 party thinks that he should have no say and should not be allowed on the Select Committee. It is reasonable that all parties from Northern Ireland should be on the Committee.
Other members of the Committee do not know the whole position, the questions to ask or what needs to be probed. They do not know the difficulties that we have in Northern Ireland and they will depend largely on the representatives from Northern Ireland to put the questions that need to be put.
I am sure that the Government are not over-enthusiastic about that. Their civil servants have already told me that they are not and—I do not refer to those presently in the Box. They must realise that the tragedy of Northern Ireland, where we have been unable to scrutinise the Government, must come to an end. The Committee can do that job and I hope that it will do it well. Under the circumstances, it is reasonable to have the numbers proposed on the Order Paper.
§ Ms Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)May I say a few words in support of the Select Committee and the amendments in the name of my hon. Friends?
A Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs is long overdue and I am pleased that it is being set up. There is an amazing democratic deficit in Northern Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland are neglected in all sorts of ways. Before getting back to a devolved Government in Northern Ireland, the least that we can do is to get this Select Committee going and begin the scrutiny that is needed.
I support the membership of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes), who has done an enormous amount of work on Northern Ireland matters and who put forward his name for the original selection list. I hope that he will get on the Committee.
Some of my hon. Friends and I are sad that my party still does not allow people in Northern Ireland to join it. We are rightly asking for more Labour Members to serve on the Select Committee, yet if I went back to live in Northern Ireland I could not remain a member of the Labour party. That is disgraceful. My party needs to deal with that problem—indeed, it is dealing with it.
Recently members of the Union of Communications Workers and the Amalgamated Engineering Union were asked whether they should have the right in Northern Ireland to join the Labour party. Protestants and Catholics alike overwhelmingly stated that they wanted the right to join the Labour party and wished that they had the right to vote for it. That is not to say—unfortunately—that they would all vote Labour, but our party should at the very least be in Northern Ireland arguing for our policies and organising. Only in that way can we in the Opposition claim really to represent the people of Northern Ireland.
Attitudes to the people of Northern Ireland are often patronising. Every time we hear of another dreadful incident, we say that they just want to fight and kill each other. Yet the Labour party does not give those people the chance to cross the sectarian divide and to join a party that would fight for their jobs, their health service and so on.
I know that this debate is about only one aspect of the situation—the setting up of the Select Committee—but I hope that it will mark a new recognition of the fact that, as 869 long as the people of Northern Ireland want to stay part of the United Kingdom, they should have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else. And that means that the Labour party should be involved. If it were, we could change the whole nature of politics in Northern Ireland.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East is elected to the Select Committee tonight. I hope that that Committee will carry out the scrutiny of Northern Ireland affairs that they so desperately need and give the people of Northern Ireland back their faith that the people in this part of the United Kingdom care about them and understand what is happening there.
§ 8.1 pm
§ Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)As a member of the Committee of Selection, I cannot resist pointing out that until this evening I used to wonder why that Committee holds all those difficult meetings. Now that I have witnessed this debate in the House I can see the justification for all the work that we do in the Committee. Certainly, there have been robust exchanges of irreconcilable views this evening.
I pay tribute to the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery). His is a difficult job. Although I do not entirely accept the recommendation that our Committee put to the House, I believe that the hon. Gentleman did everything conceivably possible to try to reach a consensus. The fact that that proved impossible was not for want of trying on his part. The House owes him a debt for the work that he did, even though a consensus eluded him.
It is always difficult to reconcile competing interests of this sort, as the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) pointed out. Some of the cross-currents cannot meet smoothly, especially since the Procedure Committee set out the rules to be followed, in the form of the motion that the House passed a few weeks ago.
I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) saying that his interests were not vigorously represented in the Committee of Selection. I take it that he would like to serve on more Committees scrutinising rating and valuation statutory instruments. Good Unionist that he is, I am sure that he would love to gain my recommendation that he serve on such Committees. If his name does appear on future Committee lists, he will learn that casting aspersions on members of the Committee of Selection can have its downside.
The hon. Member for Antrim, North did make a serious point, however. He was worried about the lack of places for minority parties on Select Committees. The rules of proportionality for Select Committees make it difficult to guarantee places for parliamentary groupings of only three hon. Members. As the unofficial shop steward for the minority parties, I do my best to ensure an element of rotation—but I completely understood the hon. Gentleman's Complaint.
This Select Committee is extremely necessary. That is why I found the speech by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) perplexing. I could not follow the logic of what he was trying to say. He was looking for bogeymen around every corner. Whatever birth pangs may have attended the setting up of this Committee, I hope that they will in no way make it more difficult to achieve a satisfactory resolution of the issues with which it will be concerned.
870 The working methods used by Select Committees—the hallmark of their success—are needed now more than ever in the Province. The hon. Member for Antrim, North rightly said that there are urgent and compelling issues to do with the governance of the Province that need scrutinising—how money is allocated, and so on. There is much work to be done; I hope that the Committee will get on with it.
The membership is not satisfactory from the point of view of the Liberal Democrats. The Chairman of the Committee of Selection said, I think, that a statistical balance had to be observed. Arithmetically speaking, he was right; but he must accept that my party played a robust part in setting up the Committee. We have always said that it should be set up, yet we have been denied membership of it. The hon. Gentleman and I have gone into the reasons for that at exhaustive length, but it is a shame that my party has not been able to nominate anyone to serve.
Certain alternatives should have been canvassed. For instance, do the Government really need a majority? It would have been better if the Select Committee covering Northern Ireland had left the Government without a majority. That would have enabled it more comprehensively to represent the shades of opinion from the Province.
The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale said that the Alliance party has no representative in the House but has a role to play. It is essential that the strand of opinion which it represents be given a voice in the conduct of the affairs of the Province—if that is true of Northern Ireland in general, it is even more true for the membership of this Committee.
§ Mr. Norman HoggThe hon. Gentleman says that he is dissatisfied with the selection that has been made, but he has not yet said how his party intends to vote on the amendments. I commend to him amendment (c)—I have done many things in politics, but I have never before been an amendment. I hope that he will feel able to support it.
§ Mr. KirkwoodI can give the hon. Gentleman the satisfaction that he seeks. There is no one I would more like to see on the Committee. Speaking as a fellow Presbyterian, I know the hon. Gentleman's prejudices well, and I look forward to giving him the opportunity to argue for them at length in the Select Committee.
§ Mr. MallonI do not wish to interfere in this Presbyterian convention, but is there any significance in the fact that amendment (c) is to leave out Mr. Dick Spring?
§ Mr. KirkwoodI would be out of order if I answered that.
There is always a danger of pigeonholing people. I hope that that danger can be averted on the Select Committee. While it is reasonable that people will want to advance the political point of view of their parties, I hope that they will not be stuck in the trenches of party-political warfare. The Select Committee would suffer as a result. I should have liked more imagination and flexibility from the Government. For example, they could have set up a joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament. It would have provided access to talent from the other place—people with distinguished careers and experience in the Province—and made the structure and composition of the Committee that much easier. A number of other 871 possibilities could have been considered to make the composition better suited to the range of political opinion and community interests in Northern Ireland.
In conclusion, as the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mr. Hogg) requested, although I repeat my tribute to the Chairman of the Committee of Selection and all our labours to get the circle squared, I cannot support the current membership of the Committee. I shall vote accordingly and ask my hon. Friends to support all the amendments, particularly amendment (c) which seeks to include the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. Why he wants to spend time trying to wrestle with the intractable problems that the Select Committee will face defeats me. We could achieve a better reconciliation of the different views by putting forward a different membership of the Committee, and I shall recommend that my hon. Friends vote accordingly.
§ Mr. Andrew Bowden (Brighton, Kemptown)I shall be brief. I add my tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Mongomery). His dignity and understanding of other people's points of view enables the Committee of Selection to work effectively. It is a great service to the House that we manage to iron out most problems and ensure they do not reach the House. It is regrettable that tonight we have not achieved as much as we have in the past.
The Northern Ireland Select Committee will make an important contribution to the affairs of Northern Ireland, so its composition is absolutely vital. I return to an intervention that I made regarding the description of the Committee. Of course it can be called a symbolic Committee, but its composition will ensure that it is much more than that; it is representative of the people of Northern Ireland and it will have the widespread powers that are available to Select Committees in the House. When the Committee is in full operation, the important role that it can play will be seen in Northern Ireland.
I agree with the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms Hoey) that it is a pity that the Committee was not established some time ago. Nobody suggests that it will produce magic answers to many of the appallingly difficult problems in Northern Ireland, but it will have a major contribution to make in relation to the views that it will hear from the range of witnesses that it will be able to call, on whatever topic it decides to investigate in detail.
The composition was a difficult decision for the Committee of Selection and now we have to decide it in the House tonight. The recommendations are just about right and, frankly, I believe that the time has now come to get the Committee established and operating as quickly as possible, to allow it to make its contribution to the grave problems facing all the people of Northern Ireland. Let us stop the talking and get the Committee set up.
§ Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down)I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate, however briefly.
Hon. Members present tonight may not have attended the debate this afternoon, or the debate on 9 March in which I tried to argue that, although some hon. Members 872 might think that we are engaged in procedural matters of the House, we are without doubt involved in a political decision.
I am glad to see the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Minister of State on the Front Bench. Earlier today, I quoted some of his comments that suggested that the Committee could not and should not be formed unless it had two qualifications: first, that it had cross-community support in Northern Ireland, and secondly, that it had cross-party support in the House. Neither of those two qualifications is present, yet the decision has been made to go ahead.
The reason can be seen in the timing of the announcement by the Leader of the House—24 hours after the Downing street declaration. The announcement was on 16 December, the day after 15 December. After all the words of the previous two years, the statements by Ministers were wiped out by that action, which clearly demonstrated that we are engaged in a political rather than a procedural process this evening.
I know that I will not be allowed to continue this train of debate, because we are talking about the Select Committee—its composition, numbers and representation—yet it is important because it affects our view of the integrity of the Government's even-handed approach to the affairs of Northern Ireland.
As to the composition of the Committee as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the best yardstick one can use is the popular vote, which was obtained in June 1987 at the last general election. On that basis, it would appear that my party, the Social Democratic and Labour party, is the only party among all those in the House from Northern Ireland which is under-represented. The other three are over-represented, by however marginal a fraction. One at least is over-represented by a factor of 10.
I listened with great interest to the ingenious arguments of earlier speakers.
§ Mr. Peter RobinsonI would be interested to hear how the hon. Gentleman works out the statistics. We are discussing a Select Committee of a United Kingdom Parliament. Every party in Northern Ireland represented on the Select Committee is over-represented when taken against the whole United Kingdom figure.
§ Mr. McGradyI do not know whether or not to thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Much has been made of the quality of representation from the Northern Ireland political parties. I reiterate the point that my party, the SDLP, is the only party which is under-represented on the Committee, and that each of the other parties is over-represented.
Some earlier speeches suggested that the Popular Unionist nomination, the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder), was not a Northern Irish nomination but was the Government representative—a Tory, but not a card-carrying member of the Tory party. I remind those who made that suggestion of the debates in the House on the Maastricht treaty and on the closure of the mines, when Ministers referred to the Conservative and Unionist party, looking at the Members of the House who sit behind me in the official Unionist parties, or whatever name they wish to use.
§ Rev. Martin SmythNeither provisional nor official.
§ Mr. McGradyBut they used to be official.
873 Why did the Government not carry forward the logic of their statements—that the appointees of the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland were extensions of the Conservative party—when their brethrenship had been claimed at the Dispatch Box on two vital occasions in the past 12 months? I find that argument disingenuous.
The fact that it is an unfair allocation of seats is not the opinion of my party alone. I have a one-sentence quotation from a editorial from the Belfast Telegraph, which cannot be described as a nationalist newspaper:
The membership, six Conservatives, two Labour, two Ulster Unionists, one DUP, one Popular Unionist and one SDLP, does not mirror the political balance in the province".As I have said, that newspaper has no nationalist leanings whatever.Except in regard to the political aspect referred to earlier, proportionality has not applied. It will be a great pity if the Government do not take this opportunity to display even-handedness. No later than December 1993, the central community relations unit of the Northern Ireland Office issued a circular—5/93—which stated categorically that the Government must not only respect equality of representation when dealing with various communities, but be proactive in achieving that. In my view, they have signally failed to be proactive this evening in supporting the Select Committee's recommendations; we shall therefore vote against the motion.
Reference has been made to correspondence, and the way in which arrangements for nominations were made vis-a-vis my party. Having heard accidentally that the Committee of Selection was meeting, I sent a fax to its Chairman, dated 16 March. I received his reply on 17 March, when we were all present for Northern Ireland Question Time. I took on board what the Chairman had said, and we then submitted our nominations on 19 March. The process could not have taken place more swiftly or accurately.
Until then, no communication of any nature regarding the meetings, appointments or procedures of the Select Committee was made known, through the so-called usual channels, to my party or any member of it.
§ Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)Let me make two linked points.
We ought to be concerned about a question that has not been answered tonight: when has each of the six Select Committees currently considering Northern Ireland administration looked into certain issues? Between 1989 and 1990, when I served in the Northern Ireland Office, the Select Committee on Environment visited Northern Ireland, questioned me here and produced a report. I have served for a year on the Select Committee on Transport; that Committee has not considered Northern Ireland issues, and, as far as I am aware, other Committees have not done so either.
I believe that the new proposal will bring more Northern Ireland Members on to the Committee, which is why I support the recommendations of the Committee of Selection. I hope that, after tonight's votes, Northern Ireland will receive more attention, with more Northern Ireland Members and others considering the issues; that Departments will become more accountable; and that the people of Northern Ireland will benefit.
§ Mr. Clive Soley (Hammersmith)If anyone had any illusions about the problems involved in legislating for Northern Ireland, today's debates should have dispelled them. We have spent about four hours debating the matter, and the Select Committee has not even met yet.
I speak with the advantage of having been nominated for membership of the Committee, and I am actually looking forward to it: I think that it will be very interesting. I hope that people will not think that I am a masochist. Let me say to the Government—and to the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery), who made a pretty good fist of a difficult job—that the numbers problem is a problem for Northern Ireland Select Committees in any event. The Unionists may not be so keen on the experiment in the coming months.
As always in Northern Ireland, the problem is that legislation takes place in a way that shows the area to be different from the rest of the United Kingdom. In an intervention in the speech of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Bowden) mentioned the special delicacy involved in Northern Ireland legislation: it is that special delicacy which makes Northern Ireland different.
Let me tell my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Ms Hoey) that all three political parties that organise, vote, campaign, put up candidates and so on in Great Britain do not do so in Northern Ireland, for very good reasons. People in Northern Ireland are quite capable of organising a Labour, Tory or Liberal party, but do not choose to do so, because the question of the border is too important.
When the Tory party tried to organise there, it was crushed when the Liberal party toyed with the idea, it was wisely advised not to become involved by the Alliance party, which presented itself as something like the Liberal party in Northern Ireland, and still does so.
There used to be a Northern Ireland Labour party—a small party, which once told me that there was a strong case for putting a gas pipeline between Northern Ireland and Scotland, that there was a far better case for that than for putting it through the south of Ireland. The party argued on the basis of there being more jobs. I am a great believer in creating more jobs, but the real reason was that the party was tending towards the Unionist position.
§ Rev. Martin Smythrose—
§ Mr. SoleyI hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me; I have not much time to make this point.
If the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale were setting up a Select Committee dealing with Scottish or Welsh affairs—which he is obliged to do in his capacity—he would seek to put only Scottish or Welsh Members on that Committee. The one thing that changes the position is the existence of a Government without a majority.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) made a good point when he said that the Government should not automatically have a majority on Select Committees, but the reality is that they do. In fact, both the main political parties would support that, because in government they would want that arrangement.
The hon. Gentleman said, very fairly and bluntly, that this was a political question: it was about political power. As political power in this country comes not from the barrel of a gun but from the ballot box, there is a case for 875 that argument, but the hon. Gentleman knows that in Scotland only Scottish Members would be involved. The only reason for the existence of English Members on the Scottish Select Committee is the fact that the Government have no majority there, and they stack the Committee with English Members to make up the numbers.
Logically, a Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs should consist only of Northern Ireland Members, except when the Government must stack it with English Members to obtain a majority. Straight away, we see the anomaly. As I have told the Unionists, the same applies to the Government of Ireland Act 1947, which states that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom for as long as it wishes. The same legislation cannot be framed for England, Scotland or Wales. It is there only because no British political party for donkey's years has treated Northern Ireland as a normal part of the United Kingdom—and we shall not be doing so again
Having said that, let me add that we are going to have a Northern Ireland Committee, and we must make it work. My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall was right in one respect: Northern Ireland does not receive the coverage it deserves. However, we are not going about it in the right way by establishing a Select Committee. It is very important that the Committee does not become a mini-Stormont; if it does, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), and others who have spoken, will have their worst nightmares proved correct.
It was the Stormont parliament—which was virtually a one-party state—that produced so many of the problems with which we are now trying to cope in Northern Ireland. Other hon. Members have also referred to it as a one-party state-but, to be fair, the new Unionist parties have now splintered into several different groups.
Let me say to any Conservative Members who will be with me on the Committee that I hope they will join me in encouraging it to meet occasionally—I emphasise the word "occasionally" deliberately, because of what I just said—in Northern Ireland. That would be useful. It would also be useful if they joined me in suggesting that the Committee visited Dublin from time to time; it will need to do so. [Interruption.] Again, we see divisions of opinion, but this is very important. We should meet in Dublin and in Northern Ireland because—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. We are not talking about where the Committee should meet; I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is well aware of what the motion says.
§ Mr. SoleyYou are absolutely right, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point is that Unionist Members will want the Committee to meet in Northern Ireland; they will not want it to meet in Dublin.
As Select Committee members, we must ensure that the Committee examines the problems of Northern Ireland in a bipartisan way. That is why the membership is important: it is useful for the Committee to have non-Unionist members from both sides of the House, because it is impossible to consider such matters as transport, agriculture, industrial investment, tourism and many other matters in Northern Ireland without also examining the link with southern Ireland—for instance, electricity prices and the price of the national grid for the whole of Ireland.
876 Those issues would not be addressed in that, way by Unionist Members. In a perverse way, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale was right to ensure that hon. Members from both sides of the House were represented on the Committee. He will not be surprised to hear me say that where he has gone badly wrong is that he has too few Labour Members. In an intervention, he made it perfectly clear why he wanted only two Labour Members on the Committee. He thought that, if there were to be a Labour Government, the Tories would have only two members. He may be right.
However, I hope that we would not have set up the Select Committee in this way, because Northern Ireland needs something better than a Select Committee. It needs proper legislation which addresses the needs of the Unionists and the republicans in Northern Ireland, and the relationship between the north of Ireland and the south. Until we do that, Northern Ireland will always be under-represented.
§ Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East)This is one of the better attended meetings on Northern Ireland. I hope that, by getting more involved in the affairs of Northern Ireland, the members of the Select Committee will join those of us who are concerned about Northern Ireland affairs when, late at night, we discuss appropriation measures, which are the equivalent of the Budget in Northern Ireland.
There is a great deal in which people can become involved. If the POLIS record—the parliamentary on-line information service—is examined, it will be discovered that the Conservative Members who have been placed on the Committee, with the exception of the chairman of their Back-Bench committee, have not, until now, been much involved in Northern Ireland matters in the House. That does not mean that they should not be on the Committee, as it will provide an opportunity for them to become interested in these matters.
It can do nothing but benefit Northern Ireland if we are all be interested in its affairs and concerned about its well-being.
§ It being one and a half hours after the motion was entered upon, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Questions which he was directed to put at that hour, pursuant to Order this day.
§ Amendment proposed to the Question: (a), leave out 'Mr. James Cran' and insert 'Mr. Thomas McAvoy'.—[Mr. McNamara.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 312.
880Division No. 184] | [8.31 pm |
AYES | |
Abbott, Ms Diane | Bell, Stuart |
Adams, Mrs Irene | Benn, Rt Hon Tony |
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Bennett, Andrew F. |
Allen, Graham | Benton, Joe |
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Bermingham, Gerald |
Armstrong, Hilary | Berry, Dr. Roger |
Ashton, Joe | Betts, Clive |
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Blunkett, David |
Barnes, Harry | Boateng, Paul |
Barron, Kevin | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
Battle, John | Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) |
Bayley, Hugh | Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) |
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Burden, Richard |
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Byers, Stephen |
Caborn, Richard | Hoon, Geoffrey |
Callaghan, Jim | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) |
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Hoyle, Doug |
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
Canavan, Dennis | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
Cann, Jamie | Hume, John |
Cariile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Hutton, John |
Chisholm, Malcolm | Illsley, Eric |
Clapham, Michael | Ingram, Adam |
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Jamieson, David |
Clelland, David | Janner, Greville |
Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
Cohen, Harry | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
Connarty, Michael | Jowell, Tessa |
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Keen, Alan |
Corbett, Robin | Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) |
Corbyn, Jeremy | Khabra, Piara S. |
Corston, Ms Jean | Kilfoyle, Peter |
Cousins, Jim | Kirkwood, Archy |
Cox, Tom | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
Cryer, Bob | Lewis, Terry |
Cunliffe, Lawrence | Litherland, Robert |
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Livingstone, Ken |
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
Dalyell, Tam | Llwyd, Elfyn |
Darling, Alistair | Loyden, Eddie |
Davidson, Ian | McAllion, John |
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) | McAvoy, Thomas |
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | McCartney, Ian |
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) | Macdonald, Calum |
Denham, John | McFall, John |
Dewar, Donald | McGrady, Eddie |
Dixon, Don | McKelvey, William |
Dobson, Frank | Mackinlay, Andrew |
Donohoe, Brian H. | McLeish, Henry |
Dowd, Jim | McMaster, Gordon |
Eagle, Ms Angela | McNamara, Kevin |
Eastham, Ken | McWilliam, John |
Enright, Derek | Madden, Max |
Etherington, Bill | Maddock, Mrs Diana |
Evans, John (St Helens N) | Mahon, Alice |
Faulds, Andrew | Mallon, Seamus |
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Marek, Dr John |
Fisher, Mark | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
Flynn, Paul | Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) |
Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) |
Foulkes, George | Martlew, Eric |
Fraser, John | Maxion, John |
Fyfe, Maria | Meacher, Michael |
Gapes, Mike | Michael, Alun |
Garrett, John | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
George, Bruce | Milburn, Alan |
Gerrard, Neil | Miller, Andrew |
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
Godman, Dr Norman A. | Morley, Elliot |
Godsiff, Roger | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
Golding, Mrs Llin | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
Gordon, Mildred | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Mowlam, Marjorie |
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Mudie, George |
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Mullin, Chris |
Grocott, Bruce | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
Gunnell, John | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
Hall, Mike | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
Hanson, David | O'Hara, Edward |
Hardy, Peter | Olner, William |
Harman, Ms Harriet | O'Neill, Martin |
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
Heppell, John | Pickthall, Colin |
Hill, Keith (Streatham) | Pike, Peter L. |
Hinchliffe, David | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
Hoey, Kate | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
Horne Robertson, John | Prescott, John |
Hood, Jimmy | Primarolo, Dawn |
Purchase, Ken | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
Quin, Ms Joyce | Steinberg, Gerry |
Radice, Giles | Stevenson, George |
Randall, Stuart | Stott, Roger |
Raynsford, Nick | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
Redmond, Martin | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
Reid, Dr John | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
Rendel, David | Turner, Dennis |
Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Vaz, Keith |
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
Roche, Mrs. Barbara | Walley, Joan |
Rogers, Allan | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
Rooney, Terry | Wareing, Robert N |
Rowlands, Ted | Watson, Mike |
Ruddock, Joan | Wicks, Malcolm |
Sedgemore, Brian | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
Sheerman, Barry | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Winnick, David |
Short, Clare | Wise, Audrey |
Simpson, Alan | Worthington, Tony |
Skinner, Dennis | Wray, Jimmy |
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) | Wright, Dr Tony |
Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | |
Snape, Peter | Tellers for the Ayes: |
Soley, Clive | Mr. Alan Meale and |
Spearing, Nigel | Mr. John Cummings. |
Spellar, John |
NOES | |
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
Aitken, Jonathan | Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey |
Alexander, Richard | Coe, Sebastian |
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Colvin, Michael |
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Congdon, David |
Ancram, Michael | Conway, Derek |
Arbuthnot, James | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) |
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Cope, Rt Hon Sir John |
Ashby, David | Cormack, Patrick |
Aspinwall, Jack | Couchman, James |
Atkins, Robert | Cran, James |
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) |
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) |
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Davies, Quentin (Stamford) |
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
Baldry, Tony | Day, Stephen |
Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
Bates, Michael | Devlin, Tim |
Batiste, Spencer | Dickens, Geoffrey |
Beggs, Roy | Dorrell, Stephen |
Bellingham, Henry | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
Bendall, Vivian | Dover, Den |
Beresford, Sir Paul | Duncan, Alan |
Biffen, Rt Hon John | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
Body, Sir Richard | Dunn, Bob |
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Durant, Sir Anthony |
Booth, Hartley | Dykes, Hugh |
Boswell, Tim | Eggar, Tim |
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Elletson, Harold |
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
Bowden, Andrew | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
Bowis, John | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
Brandreth, Gyles | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
Brazier, Julian | Evennett, David |
Bright, Graham | Faber, David |
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Fabricant, Michael |
Browning, Mrs. Angela | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
Budgen, Nicholas | Fishburn, Dudley |
Burns, Simon | Forman, Nigel |
Butterfill, John | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) |
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Forth, Eric |
Carrington, Matthew | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
Carttiss, Michael | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
Cash, William | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
Churchill, Mr | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
Clappison, James | French, Douglas |
Fry, Sir Peter | Maclean, David |
Gale, Roger | McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick |
Gallie, Phil | Madel, Sir David |
Gardiner, Sir George | Maginnis, Ken |
Garnier, Edward | Maitland, Lady Olga |
Gill, Christopher | Malone, Gerald |
Gillan, Cheryl | Mans, Keith |
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marland, Paul |
Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Martow, Tony |
Gorst, John | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian |
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
Grylls, Sir Michael | Mellor, Rt Hon David |
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Merchant, Piers |
Hague, William | Mills, Iain |
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) |
Hampson, Dr Keith | Moate, Sir Roger |
Hanley, Jeremy | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
Hannam, Sir John | Monro, Sir Hector |
Hargreaves, Andrew | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
Harris, David | Moss, Malcolm |
Haselhurst, Alan | Nelson, Anthony |
Hawkins, Nick | Neubert, Sir Michael |
Hawksley, Warren | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
Hayes, Jerry | Nicholls, Patrick |
Heald, Oliver | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
Heathcoat-Amory, David | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
Hendry, Charles | Norris, Steve |
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley |
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. | Oppenheim, Phillip |
Hill, James (Southampton Test) | Ottaway, Richard |
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) | Page, Richard |
Horam, John | Paice, James |
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Paisley, Rev Ian |
Howard, Rt Hon Michael | Patten, Rt Hon John |
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) | Pawsey, James |
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) | Pickles, Eric |
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
Hunter, Andrew | Rathbone, Tim |
Jack, Michael | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
Jenkin, Bernard | Richards, Rod |
Jessel, Toby | Riddick, Graham |
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) |
Key, Robert | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
Kilfedder, Sir James | Ross, William (E Londonderry) |
King, Rt Hon Tom | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
Kirkhope, Timothy | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
Knapman, Roger | Sackville, Tom |
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
Knox, Sir David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Shersby, Michael |
Legg, Barry | Sims, Roger |
Leigh, Edward | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
Lidington, David | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
Lightbown, David | Soames, Nicholas |
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Speed, Sir Keith |
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) | Spencer, Sir Derek |
Lord, Michael | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
Luff, Peter | Spink, Dr Robert |
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Spring, Richard |
MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Sproat, Iain |
MacKay, Andrew | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John | Viggers, Peter |
Steen, Anthony | Waktegrave, Rt Hon William |
Stephen, Michael | Walden, George |
Stern, Michael | Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) |
Stewart, Allan | Waller, Gary |
Streeter, Gary | Ward, John |
Sumberg, David | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
Sweeney, Walter | Waterson, Nigel |
Sykes, John | Watts, John |
Tapsell, Sir Peter | Wells, Bowen |
Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) | Whitney, Ray |
Taylor, John M. (Solihull) | Whittingdale, John |
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) | Widdecombe, Ann |
Temple-Morris, Peter | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
Thomason, Roy | Wilkinson, John |
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Willetts, David |
Thornton, Sir Malcolm | Wilshire, David |
Thurnham, Peter | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
Townend, John (Bridlington) | Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld) |
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) | Wolfson, Mark |
Tracey, Richard | Wood, Timothy |
Tredinnick, David | Yeo, Tim |
Trend, Michael | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
Trimble, David | |
Trotter, Neville | Tellers for the Noes: |
Twinn, Dr Ian | Mr. Sydney Chapman and |
Vaughan, Sir Gerard | Mr. Irvine Patrick. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendment proposed to the Question: (b), leave out `Mr. Charles Hendry' and insert 'Mr. Harry Barnes'.—[Mr. McNamara.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 241, Noes 313.
884Division No. 185] | [8.44 pm |
AYES | |
Abbott, Ms Diane | Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) |
Adams, Mrs Irene | Clelland, David |
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Clwyd, Mrs Ann |
Allen, Graham | Cohen, Harry |
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Connarty, Michael |
Armstrong, Hilary | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
Ashton, Joe | Cook, Robin (Livingston) |
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Corbett, Robin |
Barnes, Harry | Corbyn, Jeremy |
Barron, Kevin | Corston, Ms Jean |
Battle, John | Cousins, Jim |
Bayley, Hugh | Cox, Tom |
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Cryer, Bob |
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
Bell, Stuart | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John |
Bennett, Andrew F. | Dalyell, Tam |
Benton, Joe | Darling, Alistair |
Bermingham, Gerald | Davidson, Ian |
Berry, Roger | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
Betts, Clive | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
Blunkett, David | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) |
Boateng, Paul | Denham, John |
Bray, Dr Jeremy | Dewar, Donald |
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Dixon, Don |
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Dobson, Frank |
Burden, Richard | Donohoe, Brian H. |
Byers, Stephen | Dowd, Jim |
Caborn, Richard | Eagle, Ms Angela |
Callaghan, Jim | Eastham, Ken |
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Enright, Derek |
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Etherington, Bill |
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Faulds, Andrew |
Canavan, Dennis | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
Cann, Jamie | Fisher, Mark |
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Flynn, Paul |
Chisholm, Malcolm | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
Clapham, Michael | Foulkes, George |
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Fraser, John |
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Fyfe, Maria |
Gapes, Mike | Martlew, Eric |
Garrett, John | Maxton, John |
George, Bruce | Meacher, Michael |
Gerrard, Neil | Meale, Alan |
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Michael, Alun |
Godman, Dr Norman A. | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
Godsiff, Roger | Milburn, Alan |
Golding, Mrs Llin | Miller, Andrew |
Gordon, Mildred | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
Graham, Thomas | Morley, Elliot |
Grant, Bermie (Tottenham) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
Grocott, Bruce | Mowlam, Marjorie |
Gunnell, John | Mudie, George |
Hall, Mike | Mullin, Chris |
Hanson, David | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
Hardy, Peter | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
Harman, Ms Harriet | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | O'Hara, Edward |
Heppell, John | Olner, William |
Hill, Keith (Streatham) | O'Neill, Martin |
Hinchliffe, David | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
Hoey, Kate | Patchett, Terry |
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | Pickthall, Colin |
Horne Robertson, John | Pike, Peter L. |
Hood, Jimmy | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
Hoon, Geoffrey | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Prescott, John |
Hoyle, Doug | Primarolo, Dawn |
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Purchase, Ken |
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Radice, Giles |
Hume, John | Randall, Stuart |
Hutton, John | Raynsford, Nick |
Illsley, Eric | Redmond, Martin |
Ingram, Adam | Reid, Dr John |
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Rendel, David |
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
Jamieson, David | Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) |
Janner, Greville | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Rogers, Allan |
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Rooney, Terry |
Jowell, Tessa | Rowlands, Ted |
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Ruddock, Joan |
Keen, Alan | Sedgemore, Brian |
Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Short, Clare |
Khabra, Piara S. | Simpson, Alan |
Kirkwood, Archy | Skinner, Dennis |
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
Lewis, Terry | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) |
Litherland, Robert | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
Livingstone, Ken | Snape, Peter |
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Soley, Clive |
Llwyd, Elfyn | Spearing, Nigel |
Loyden, Eddie | Spellar, John |
McAllion, John | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
McAvoy, Thomas | Steinberg, Gerry |
McCartney, Ian | Stevenson, George |
Macdonald, Calum | Stott, Roger |
McFall, John | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
McGrady, Eddie | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
McKelvey, William | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
Mackinlay, Andrew | Turner, Dennis |
McLeish, Henry | Vaz, Keith |
McMaster, Gordon | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
McNamara, Kevin | Walley, Joan |
McWilliam, John | Warded, Gareth (Gower) |
Madden, Max | Wareing, Robert N |
Maddock, Mrs Diana | Watson, Mike |
Mahon, Alice | Wicks, Malcolm |
Mallon, Seamus | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
Marek, Dr John | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Winnick, David |
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Wise, Audrey |
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Worthington, Tony |
Wray, Jimmy | Tellers for the Ayes: |
Wright, Dr Tony | Mr. John Cummings and |
Young, David (Bolton SE) | Mr. Peter Kilfoyle. |
NOES | |
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
Aitken, Jonathan | Dunn, Bob |
Alexander, Richard | Durant, Sir Anthony |
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Dykes, Hugh |
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Eggar, Tim |
Ancram, Michael | Elletson, Harold |
Arbuthnot, James | Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
Ashby, David | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
Aspinwall, Jack | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
Atkins, Robert | Evennett, David |
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Faber, David |
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Fabricant, Michael |
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
Baldry, Tony | Fishburn, Dudley |
Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Forman, Nigel |
Bates, Michael | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
Batiste, Spencer | Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) |
Beggs, Roy | Forth, Eric |
Bellingham, Henry | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
Bendall, Vivian | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
Beresford, Sir Paul | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
Biffen, Rt Hon John | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
Body, Sir Richard | French, Douglas |
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Fry, Sir Peter |
Booth, Hartley | Gale, Roger |
Boswell, Tim | Gallie, Phil |
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Gardiner, Sir George |
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Garnier, Edward |
Bowden, Andrew | Gill, Christopher |
Bowis, John | Gillan, Cheryl |
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
Brandreth, Gyles | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
Brazier, Julian | Gorst, John |
Bright, Graham | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
Browning, Mrs. Angela | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
Budgen, Nicholas | Grylls, Sir Michael |
Burns, Simon | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
Butterfill, John | Hague, William |
Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie |
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
Carrington, Matthew | Hampson, Dr Keith |
Carttiss, Michael | Hanley, Jeremy |
Cash, William | Hannam, Sir John |
Churchill, Mr | Hargreaves, Andrew |
Clappison, James | Harris, David |
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Haselhurst, Alan |
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hawkins, Nick |
Coe, Sebastian | Hawksley, Warren |
Colvin, Michael | Hayes, Jerry |
Congdon, David | Heald, Oliver |
Conway, Derek | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Hendry, Charles |
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
Cormack, Patrick | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
Couchman, James | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
Cran, James | Horam, John |
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
Davis, David (Boothferry) | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
Day, Stephen | Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) |
Deva, Nirj Joseph | Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) |
Devlin, Tim | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
Dickens, Geoffrey | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
Dorrell, Stephen | Hunter, Andrew |
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Jack, Michael |
Dover, Den | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
Duncan, Alan | Jenkin, Bernard |
Jessel, Toby | Riddick, Graham |
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
Kellett-Bowrnan, Dame Elaine | Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) |
Key, Robert | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
Kilfedder, Sir James | Ross, William (E Londonderry) |
King, Rt Hon Tom | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
Kirkhope, Timothy | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
Knapman, Roger | Sackville, Tom |
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
Knox, Sir David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Shersby, Michael |
Legg, Barry | Sims, Roger |
Leigh, Edward | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
Lidington, David | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
Lightbown, David | Soames, Nicholas |
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Speed, Sir Keith |
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) | Spencer, Sir Derek |
Lord, Michael | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
Luff, Peter | Spink, Dr Robert |
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Spring, Richard |
MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Sproat, Iain |
MacKay, Andrew | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
Maclean, David | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Steen, Anthony |
Madel, Sir David | Stephen, Michael |
Maginnis, Ken | Stern, Michael |
Maitland, Lady Olga | Stewart, Allan |
Malone, Gerald | Streeter, Gary |
Mans, Keith | Sumberg, David |
Marland, Paul | Sweeney, Walter |
Marlow, Tony | Sykes, John |
Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
Mellor, Rt Hon David | Temple-Morris, Peter |
Merchant, Piers | Thomason, Roy |
Mills, Iain | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Thornton, Sir Malcolm |
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Thurnham, Peter |
Moate, Sir Roger | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
Molyneaux, Rt Hon James | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
Monro, Sir Hector | Tracey, Richard |
Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Tredinnick, David |
Moss, Malcolm | Trend, Michael |
Nelson, Anthony | Trimble, David |
Neubert, Sir Michael | Trotter, Neville |
Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Twinn, Dr Ian |
Nicholls, Patrick | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Viggers, Peter |
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
Norris, Steve | Walden, George |
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) |
Oppenheim, Phillip | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
Ottaway, Richard | Waller, Gary |
Page, Richard | Ward, John |
Paice, James | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
Paisley, Rev Ian | Waterson, Nigel |
Patten, Rt Hon John | Watts, John |
Pawsey, James | Wells, Bowen |
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
Pickles, Eric | Whitney, Ray |
Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Whittingdale, John |
Porter, David (Waveney) | Widdecombe, Ann |
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
Rathbone, Tim | Wilkinson, John |
Redwood, Rt Hon John | Willetts, David |
Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Wilshire, David |
Richards, Rod | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
Winterton, Nicholas(Macc'f'ld) | |
Wolfson, Mark | Tellers for the Noes: |
Wood, Timothy | Mr. Sydney Chapman and |
Yeo, Tim | Mr. Irvine Patnick |
Yound, Rt Hon Sir George |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendment proposed to the Question: (c), leave out `Mr. Richard Spring' and insert 'Mr. Norman Hogg'.—[Mr. McNamara.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 307.
887Division No. 186] | [8.56 pm |
AYES | |
Abbott, Ms Diane | Dixon, Don |
Adams, Mrs Irene | Dobson, Frank |
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Donohoe, Brian H. |
Allen, Graham | Dowd, Jim |
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Eagle, Ms Angela |
Armstrong, Hilary | Eastham, Ken |
Ashton, Joe | Enright, Derek |
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Etherington, Bill |
Barnes, Harry | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
Barron, Kevin | Faulds, Andrew |
Battle, John | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
Bayley, Hugh | Fisher, Mark |
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Flynn, Paul |
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
Bell, Stuart | Foulkes, George |
Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Fraser, John |
Bennett, Andrew F. | Fyfe, Maria |
Benton, Joe | Gapes, Mike |
Bermingham, Gerald | Garrett, John |
Berry, Dr. Roger | George, Bruce |
Betts, Clive | Gerrard, Neil |
Blunkett, David | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
Boateng, Paul | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
Bray, Dr Jeremy | Godsiff, Roger |
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Golding, Mrs Llin |
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Gordon, Mildred |
Burden, Richard | Graham, Thomas |
Byers, Stephen | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
Caborn, Richard | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
Callaghan, Jim | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Grocott, Bruce |
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Gunnell, John |
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hall, Mike |
Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Hanson, David |
Canavan, Dennis | Hardy, Peter |
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
Chisholm, Malcolm | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
Clapham, Michael | Heppell, John |
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hinchliffe, David |
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Hoey, Kate |
Clelland, David | Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) |
Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Home Robertson, John |
Cohen, Harry | Hood, Jimmy |
Connarty, Michael | Hoon, Geoffrey |
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) |
Corbett, Robin | Hoyle, Doug |
Corbyn, Jeremy | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
Corston, Ms Jean | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
Cousins, Jim | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
Cox, Tom | Hume, John |
Cryer, Bob | Hutton, John |
Cunliffe, Lawrence | Illsley, Eric |
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Ingram, Adam |
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
Dalyell, Tam | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
Darling, Alistair | Jamieson, David |
Davidson, Ian | Janner, Greville |
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
Denham, John | Keen, Alan |
Dewar, Donald | Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) |
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Prescott, John |
Khabra, Piara S. | Primarolo, Dawn |
Kilfoyle, Peter | Purchase, Ken |
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
Lewis, Terry | Radice, Giles |
Litherland, Robert | Randall, Stuart |
Livingstone, Ken | Raynsford, Nick |
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Redmond, Martin |
Llwyd, Elfyn | Reid, Dr John |
Loyden, Eddie | Rendel, David |
McAllion, John | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
McAvoy, Thomas | Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) |
McCartney, Ian | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
Macdonald, Calum | Rogers, Allan |
McFall, John | Rooney, Terry |
McGrady, Eddie | Rowlands, Ted |
McKelvey, William | Ruddock, Joan |
Mackinlay, Andrew | Sedgemore, Brian |
McLeish, Henry | Sheerman, Barry |
McMaster, Gordon | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
McNamara, Kevin | Short, Clare |
McWilliam, John | Simpson, Alan |
Madden, Max | Skinner, Dennis |
Maddock, Mrs Diana | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
Mahon, Alice | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) |
Mallon, Seamus | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
Marek, Dr John | Snape, Peter |
Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Soley, Clive |
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Spearing, Nigel |
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Spellar, John |
Martlew, Eric | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
Maxton, John | Steinberg, Gerry |
Meacher, Michael | Stevenson, George |
Michael, Alun | Stott, Roger |
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
Milburn, Alan | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
Miller, Andrew | Thompson, Jack (Wansback) |
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Turner, Dennis |
Morley, Elliot | Vaz, Keith |
Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Walley, Joan |
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
Mowlam, Marjorie | Wareing, Robert N |
Mudie, George | Watson, Mike |
Mullin, Chris | Wicks, Malcolm |
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
O'Brien, William (Normanton) | Winnick, David |
O'Hara, Edward | Wise, Audrey |
Olner, William | Worthington, Tony |
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Wray, Jimmy |
Patchett, Terry | Wright, Dr Tony |
Pickthall, Colin | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
Pike, Peter L. | |
Powell, Ray (Ogmore) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) | Mr. John Cummings, and Mr. Alan Meale. |
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
NOES | |
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Bellingham, Henry |
Aitken, Jonathan | Bendall, Vivian |
Alexander, Richard | Beresford, Sir Paul |
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Biffen, Rt Hon John |
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Body, Sir Richard |
Ancram, Michael | Bonsor, Sir Nicholas |
Arbuthnot, James | Booth, Hartley |
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Boswell, Tim |
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) |
Ashby, David | Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia |
Aspinwall, Jack | Bowden, Andrew |
Atkins, Robert | Bowis, John |
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes |
Atkinson, Peter(Hexham) | Brandreth, Gyles |
Baker, Rt Hon K.(Mole Valley) | Brazier, Julian |
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Bright, Graham |
Baldry, Tony | Browning, Mrs. Angela |
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) |
Bates, Michael | Budgen, Nicholas |
Batiste, Spencer | Burns, Simon |
Beggs, Roy | Butterfill, John |
Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Haselhurst, Alan |
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hawkins, Nick |
Carrington, Matthew | Hawksley, Warren |
Carttiss, Michael | Hayes, Jerry |
Cash, William | Heald, Oliver |
Chapman, Sydney | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
Churchill, Mr | Hendry, Charles |
Clappison, James | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
Coe, Sebastian | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
Colvin, Michael | Horam, John |
Congdon, David | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
Conway, Derek | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) |
Cormack, Patrick | Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) |
Couchman, James | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
Cran, James | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Hunter, Andrew |
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Jack, Michael |
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
Davis, David (Boothferry) | Jenkin, Bernard |
Day, Stephen | Jessel, Toby |
Deva, Nirj Joseph | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
Devlin, Tim | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
Dickens, Geoffrey | Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) |
Dorrell, Stephen | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Key, Robert |
Dover, Den | Kilfedder, Sir James |
Duncan, Alan | King, Rt Hon Tom |
Duncan-Smith, Iain | Kirkhope, Timothy |
Dunn, Bob | Knapman, Roger |
Durant, Sir Anthony | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
Dykes, Hugh | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
Eggar, Tim | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
Elletson, Harold | Knox, Sir David |
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Lawrence, Sir Ivan |
Evans, Roger (Monmouth) | Legg, Barry |
Evennett, David | Leigh, Edward |
Faber, David | Lennox-Boyd, Mark |
Fabricant, Michael | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lidington, David |
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lightbown, David |
Fishburn, Dudley | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
Forman, Nigel | Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) |
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lord, Michael |
Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) | Luff, Peter |
Forth, Eric | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) | Maclean, David |
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) | McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick |
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger | Madel, Sir David |
French, Douglas | Maginnis, Ken |
Fry, Sir Peter | Maitland, Lady Olga |
Gale, Roger | Malone, Gerald |
Gallie, Phil | Mans, Keith |
Gardiner, Sir George | Marland, Paul |
Garnier, Edward | Marlow, Tony |
Gill, Christopher | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
Gillan, Cheryl | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian |
Gorst, John | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) | Mellor, Rt Hon David |
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Merchant, Piers |
Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mills, Iain |
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
Grylls, Sir Michael | Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) |
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Moate, Sir Roger |
Hague, William | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | Monro, Sir Hector |
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
Hanley, Jeremy | Moss, Malcolm |
Hannam, Sir John | Nelson, Anthony |
Hargreaves, Andrew | Neubert, Sir Michael |
Harris, David | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
Nicholls, Patrick | Stephen, Michael |
Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Stern, Michael |
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Stewart, Allan |
Norris, Steve | Streeter, Gary |
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Sumberg, David |
Oppenheim, Phillip | Sweeney, Walter |
Ottaway, Richard | Sykes, John |
Page, Richard | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
Paice, James | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
Paisley, Rev Ian | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
Patnick, Irvine | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
Patten, Rt Hon John | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
Pawsey, James | Temple-Morris, Peter |
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Thomason, Roy |
Pickles, Eric | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
Porter, David (Waveney) | Thornton, Sir Malcolm |
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Thurnham, Peter |
Rathbone, Tim | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
Redwood, Rt Hon John | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Tracey, Richard |
Richards, Rod | Tredinnick, David |
Riddick, Graham | Trend, Michael |
Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Trimble, David |
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Trotter, Neville |
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Viggers, Peter |
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Walden, George |
Ross, William (E Londonderry) | Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) |
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela | Waller, Gary |
Sackville, Tom | Ward, John |
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas | Waterson, Nigel |
Shaw, David (Dover) | Watts, John |
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Wells, Bowen |
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Whitney, Ray |
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) | Whittingdale, John |
Shersby, Michael | Widdecombe, Ann |
Sims, Roger | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
Skeet, Sir Trevor | Wilkinson, John |
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Willetts, David |
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Wilshire, David |
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
Soames, Nicholas | Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld) |
Speed, Sir Keith | Wolfson, Mark |
Spencer, Sir Derek | Wood, Timothy |
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Yeo, Tim |
Spink, Dr Robert | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
Spring, Richard | |
Sproat, Iain | Tellers for the Noes: |
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) | Mr. Andrew MacKay and Mr. Michael Brown |
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John | |
Steen, Anthony |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendment proposed to the Question: (d), leave out 'Mr. David Wilshire' and insert 'Mr. Andrew Mackinlay'.—[Mr. McNamara. ]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 235, Noes 308.
891Division No. 187] | [9.08 pm |
AYES | |
Adams, Mrs Irene | Benn, Rt Hon Tony |
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Bennett, Andrew F. |
Allen, Graham | Benton, Joe |
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Bermingham, Gerald |
Armstrong, Hilary | Berry, Dr. Roger |
Ashton, Joe | Betts, Clive |
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Blunkett, David |
Barnes, Harry | Boateng, Paul |
Barron, Kevin | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
Battle, John | Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) |
Bayley, Hugh | Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) |
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Burden, Richard |
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Byers, Stephen |
Bell, Stuart | Caborn, Richard |
Callaghan, Jim | Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) |
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Hoyle, Doug |
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
Canavan, Dennis | Hume, John |
Cann, Jamie | Hutton, John |
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Illsley, Eric |
Chisholm, Malcolm | Ingram, Adam |
Clapham, Michael | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Jamieson, David |
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Janner, Greville |
Clelland, David | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
Cohen, Harry | Jowell, Tessa |
Connarty, Michael | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Keen, Alan |
Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) |
Corbett, Robin | Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) |
Corbyn, Jeremy | Khabra, Piara S. |
Corston, Ms Jean | Kirkwood, Archy |
Cousins, Jim | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
Cox, Tom | Lewis, Terry |
Cryer, Bob | Litherland, Robert |
Cunliffe, Lawrence | Livingstone, Ken |
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Llwyd, Elfyn |
Dalyell, Tam | Loyden, Eddie |
Darling, Alistair | McAllion, John |
Davidson, Ian | McAvoy, Thomas |
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) | McCartney, Ian |
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Macdonald, Calum |
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) | McFall, John |
Denham, John | McGrady, Eddie |
Dewar, Donald | McKelvey, William |
Dixon, Don | Mackinlay, Andrew |
Donohoe, Brian H. | McLeish, Henry |
Dowd, Jim | McMaster, Gordon |
Eagle, Ms Angela | McNamara, Kevin |
Eastham, Ken | McWilliam, John |
Enright, Derek | Madden, Max |
Etherington, Bill | Maddock, Mrs Diana |
Faulds, Andrew | Mahon, Alice |
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Mallon, Seamus |
Fisher, Mark | Marek, Dr John |
Flynn, Paul | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) |
Foulkes, George | Martlew, Eric |
Fraser, John | Maxton, John |
Fyfe, Maria | Meacher, Michael |
Gapes, Mike | Meale, Alan |
Garrett, John | Michael, Alun |
George, Bruce | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
Gerrard, Neil | Milburn, Alan |
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Miller, Andrew |
Godman, Dr Norman A. | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
Godsiff, Roger | Morley, Elliot |
Golding, Mrs Llin | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
Gordon, Mildred | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
Graham, Thomas | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Mowlam, Marjorie |
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Mudie, George |
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Mullin, Chris |
Grocott, Bruce | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
Gunnell, John | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
Hall, Mike | O'Hara, Edward |
Hanson, David | Olner, William |
Hardy, Peter | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
Harman, Ms Harriet | Patchett, Terry |
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Pickthall, Colin |
Heppell, John | Pike, Peter L. |
Hill, Keith (Streatham) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
Hinchliffe, David | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
Hoey, Kate | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | Prescott, John |
Horne Robertson, John | Primarolo, Dawn |
Hood, Jimmy | Purchase, Ken |
Hoon, Geoffrey | Quin, Ms Joyce |
Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Randall, Stuart |
Raynsford, Nick | Stevenson, George |
Redmond, Martin | Stott, Roger |
Reid, Dr John | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
Rendel, David | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) | Turner, Dennis |
Roche, Mrs. Barbara | Vaz, Keith |
Rogers, Allan | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
Rooney, Terry | Walley, Joan |
Rowlands, Ted | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
Ruddock, Joan | Wareing, Robert N |
Sedgemore, Brian | Watson, Mike |
Sheerman, Barry | Wicks, Malcolm |
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
Short, Clare | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
Simpson, Alan | Winnick, David |
Skinner, Dennis | Wise, Audrey |
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) | Worthington, Tony |
Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) | Wray, Jimmy |
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | Wright, Dr Tony |
Snape, Peter | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
Soley, Clive | |
Spearing, Nigel | Tellers for the Ayes: |
Spellar, John | Mr. John Cummings and Mr. Peter Kilfoyle. |
Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) | |
Steinberg, Gerry |
NOES | |
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Conway, Derek |
Aitken, Jonathan | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) |
Alexander, Richard | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Cope, Rt Hon Sir John |
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Cormack, Patrick |
Ancram, Michael | Couchman, James |
Arbuthnot, James | Cran, James |
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) |
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) |
Ashby, David | Davies, Ouentin (Stamford) |
Aspinwall, Jack | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Day, Stephen |
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Devlin, Tim |
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Dickens, Geoffrey |
Baldry, Tony | Dorrell, Stephen |
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
Bates, Michael | Dover, Den |
Batiste, Spencer | Duncan, Alan |
Beggs, Roy | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
Bellingham, Henry | Dunn, Bob |
Bendall, Vivian | Durant, Sir Anthony |
Beresford, Sir Paul | Dykes, Hugh |
Biffen, Rt Hon John | Eggar, Tim |
Body, Sir Richard | Elletson, Harold |
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfleld) |
Booth, Hartley | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
Boswell, Tim | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Evennett, David |
Bowden, Andrew | Faber, David |
Bowis, John | Fabricant, Michael |
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
Brandreth, Gyles | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
Brazier, Julian | Fishburn, Dudley |
Browning, Mrs. Angela | Forman, Nigel |
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
Burns, Simon | Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) |
Butterfill, John | Forth, Eric |
Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
Carrington, Matthew | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
Carttiss, Michael | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
Cash, William | French, Douglas |
Chapman, Sydney | Fry, Sir Peter |
Churchill, Mr | Gale, Roger |
Clappison, James | Gallie, Phil |
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Gardiner, Sir George |
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Garnier, Edward |
Coe, Sebastian | Gill, Christopher |
Colvin, Michael | Gillan, Cheryl |
Congdon, David | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
Gorst, John | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian |
Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Mellor, Rt Hon David |
Grylls, Sir Michael | Merchant, Piers |
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Mills, Iain |
Hague, William | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) |
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Moate, Sir Roger |
Hampson, Dr Keith | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
Hanley, Jeremy | Monro, Sir Hector |
Hannam, Sir John | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
Hargreaves, Andrew | Moss, Malcolm |
Harris, David | Nelson, Anthony |
Haselhurst, Alan | Neubert, Sir Michael |
Hawkins, Nick | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
Hawksley, Warren | Nicholls, Patrick |
Hayes, Jerry | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
Heald, Oliver | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
Heathcoat-Amory, David | Norris, Steve |
Hendry, Charles | Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley |
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Oppenheim, Phillip |
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. | Ottaway, Richard |
Hill, James (Southampton Test) | Page, Richard |
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) | Paice, James |
Horam, John | Paisley, Rev Ian |
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Patnick, Irvine |
Howard, Rt Hon Michael | Patten, Rt Hon John |
Howarth, Alan (Strafrd-on-A) | Pawsey, James |
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) | Pickles, Eric |
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
Hunter, Andrew | Rathbone, Tim |
Jack, Michael | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
Jenkin, Bernard | Richards, Rod |
Jessel, Toby | Riddick, Graham |
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
Jones, Robert B. (WHertfdshr) | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) |
Key, Robert | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
Kilfedder, Sir James | Ross, William (E Londonderry) |
King, Rt Hon Tom | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
Kirkhope, Timothy | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
Knapman, Roger | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Sackville, Tom |
Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
Knox, Sir David | Shaw, David (Dover) |
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Shersby, Michael |
Legg, Barry | Sims, Roger |
Leigh, Edward | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
Lidington, David | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
Lightbown, David | Soames, Nicholas |
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Speed, Sir Keith |
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) | Spencer, Sir Derek |
Lord, Michael | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
Luff, Peter | Spink, Dr Robert |
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Spring, Richard |
MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Sproat, Iain |
Maclean, David | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
Madel, Sir David | Steen, Anthony |
Maginnis, Ken | Stephen, Michael |
Maitland, Lady Olga | Stern, Michael |
Malone, Gerald | Stewart, Allan |
Mans, Keith | Streeter, Gary |
Marland, Paul | Sumberg, David |
Marlow, Tony | Sweeney, Walter |
Sykes, John | Waller, Gary |
Tapsell, Sir Peter | Ward, John |
Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) | Waterson, Nigel |
Taylor, John M. (Solihull) | Watts, John |
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) | Wells, Bowen |
Temple-Morris, Peter | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
Thomason, Roy | Whitney, Ray |
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Whittingdale, John |
Thornton, Sir Malcolm | Widdecombe, Ann |
Thumham, Peter | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
Townend, John (Bridlington) | Wilkinson, John |
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) | Willetts, David |
Tracey, Richard | Wilshire, David |
Tredinnick, David | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
Trend, Michael | Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld) |
Trimble, David | Wolfson, Mark |
Trotter, Neville | Wood, Timothy |
Twinn, Dr Ian | Yeo, Tim |
Vaughan, Sir Gerard | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
Viggers, Peter | |
Walden, George | Tellers for the Noes: |
Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) | Mr. Andrew MacKay and Mr. Michael Brown |
Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendment proposed to the Question: (e), leave out 'Mr. Mark Wolfson' and insert 'Mr. Austin Mitchell'.—[Mr. McNamara.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 307.
894Division No. 188] | [9.21 pm |
AYES | |
Abbott, Ms Diane | Cook, Robin (Livingston) |
Adams, Mrs Irene | Corbett, Robin |
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Corbyn, Jeremy |
Allen, Graham | Corston, Ms Jean |
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Cousins, Jim |
Armstrong, Hilary | Cox, Tom |
Ashton, Joe | Cryer, Bob |
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Cummings, John |
Barnes, Harry | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
Barron, Kevin | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
Battle, John | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John |
Bayley, Hugh | Dalyell, Tam |
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Darling, Alistair |
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Davidson, Ian |
Bell, Stuart | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
Bennett, Andrew F. | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) |
Benton, Joe | Denham, John |
Bermingham, Gerald | Dewar, Donald |
Berry, Roger | Dixon, Don |
Betts, Clive | Dobson, Frank |
Blunkett, David | Donohoe, Brian H. |
Boateng, Paul | Dowd, Jim |
Bray, Dr Jeremy | Eagle, Ms Angela |
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Eastham, Ken |
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Enright, Derek |
Burden, Richard | Etherington, Bill |
Byers, Stephen | Faulds, Andrew |
Callaghan, Jim | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Fisher, Mark |
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Flynn, Paul |
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Foulkes, George |
Canavan, Dennis | Fraser, John |
Cann, Jamie | Fyfe, Maria |
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Gapes, Mike |
Chisholm, Malcolm | Garrett, John |
Clapham, Michael | George, Bruce |
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Gerrard, Neil |
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
Clelland, David | Godsiff, Roger |
Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Golding, Mrs Llin |
Cohen, Harry | Gordon, Mildred |
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Graham, Thomas |
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Morley, Elliot |
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
Gunnell, John | Mowlam, Marjorie |
Hall, Mike | Mudie, George |
Hanson, David | Mullin, Chris |
Hardy, Peter | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
Harman, Ms Harriet | O'Brien, Michael (N Wkshire) |
Heppell, John | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
Hill, Keith (Streatham) | O'Hara, Edward |
Hinchliffe, David | Olner, William |
Hoey, Kate | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | Patchett, Terry |
Horne Robertson, John | Pickthall, Colin |
Hood, Jimmy | Pike, Peter L. |
Hoon, Geoffrey | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
Howarth, George (KnowsleyN) | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
Hoyle, Doug | Prescott, John |
Hughes, Kevin (DoncasterN) | Primarolo, Dawn |
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Purchase, Ken |
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
Hume, John | Randall, Stuart |
Hutton, John | Raynsford, Nick |
Ingram, Adam | Redmond, Martin |
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Reid, Dr John |
Jackson, Helen (Shefld, H) | Rendel, David |
Jamieson, David | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
Janner, Greville | Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) |
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Rogers, Allan |
Jowell, Tessa | Rooney, Terry |
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Rowlands, Ted |
Keen, Alan | Ruddock, Joan |
Kennedy, Charles (Ross.C&S) | Sedgemore, Brian |
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Sheerman, Barry |
Khabra, Piara S. | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
Kilfoyle, Peter | Short, Clare |
Kirkwood, Archy | Simpson, Alan |
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Skinner, Dennis |
Lewis, Terry | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
Litherland, Robert | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) |
Livingstone, Ken | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Snape, Peter |
Llwyd, Elfyn | Soley, Clive |
Loyden, Eddie | Spearing, Nigel |
McAllion, John | Spellar, John |
McAvoy, Thomas | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
McCartney, Ian | Steinberg, Gerry |
Macdonald, Calum | Stevenson, George |
McFall, John | Stott, Roger |
McGrady, Eddie | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
McKelvey, William | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
Mackinlay, Andrew | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
McLeish, Henry | Turner, Dennis |
McMaster, Gordon | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
McNamara, Kevin | Walley, Joan |
McWilliam, John | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
Madden, Max | Wareing, Robert N |
Maddock, Mrs Diana | Watson, Mike |
Mahon, Alice | Wicks, Malcolm |
Mallon, Seamus | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
Marek, Dr John | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Winnick, David |
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Wise, Audrey |
Martlew, Eric | Worthington, Tony |
Maxton, John | Wray, Jimmy |
Meacher, Michael | Wright, Dr Tony |
Michael, Alun | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | |
Milburn, Alan | Tellers for the Ayes: |
Miller, Andrew | Mr. Eric Illsley and Mr. Alan Meale. |
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
NOES | |
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Allason, Rupert (Torbay) |
Aitken, Jonathan | Ancram, Michael |
Alexander, Richard | Arbuthnot, James |
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) |
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Fishburn, Dudley |
Ashby, David | Forman, Nigel |
Aspinwall, Jack | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) |
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Forth, Eric |
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
Baldry, Tony | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
Bates, Michael | French, Douglas |
Batiste, Spencer | Fry, Sir Peter |
Beggs, Roy | Gale, Roger |
Bellingham, Henry | Gallie, Phil |
Bendall, Vivian | Gardiner, Sir George |
Beresford, Sir Paul | Garnier, Edward |
Biffen, Rt Hon John | Gill, Christopher |
Body, Sir Richard | Gillan, Cheryl |
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
Booth, Hartley | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
Boswell, Tim | Gorst, John |
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
Bowden, Andrew | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
Bowis, John | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Grylls, Sir Michael |
Brandreth, Gyles | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
Brazier, Julian | Hague, William |
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie |
Browning, Mrs. Angela | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
Burns, Simon | Hanley, Jeremy |
Butterfill, John | Hannam, Sir John |
Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Hargreaves, Andrew |
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Harris, David |
Carrington, Matthew | Haselhurst, Alan |
Carttiss, Michael | Hawkins, Nick |
Cash, William | Hawksley, Warren |
Chapman, Sydney | Hayes, Jerry |
Churchill, Mr | Heald, Oliver |
Clappison, James | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hendry, Charles |
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
Coe, Sebastian | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
Colvin, Michael | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
Congdon, David | Horam, John |
Conway, Derek | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
Cormack, Patrick | Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) |
Couchman, James | Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) |
Cran, James | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Hunter, Andrew |
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Jack, Michael |
Davis, David (Boothferry) | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
Day, Stephen | Jenkin, Bernard |
Deva, Nirj Joseph | Jessel, Toby |
Devlin, Tim | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
Dickens, Geoffrey | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
Dorrell, Stephen | Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) |
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
Dover, Den | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
Duncan, Alan | Key, Robert |
Duncan-Smith, Iain | Kilfedder, Sir James |
Dunn, Bob | King, Rt Hon Tom |
Durant, Sir Anthony | Kirkhope, Timothy |
Dykes, Hugh | Knapman, Roger |
Eggar, Tim | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
Elletson, Harold | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Knox, Sir David |
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
Evans, Roger (Monmouth) | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
Evennett, David | Lawrence, Sir Ivan |
Faber, David | Legg, Barry |
Fabricant, Michael | Leigh, Edward |
Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lennox-Boyd, Mark |
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
Lidington, David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
Lightbown, David | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) | Shersby, Michael |
Lord, Michael | Sims, Roger |
Luff, Peter | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
MacKay, Andrew | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
Maclean, David | Soames, Nicholas |
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Speed, Sir Keith |
Madel, Sir David | Spencer, Sir Derek |
Maginnis, Ken | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
Maitland, Lady Olga | Spink, Dr Robert |
Malone, Gerald | Spring, Richard |
Mans, Keith | Sproat, Iain |
Marland, Paul | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
Marlow, Tony | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Steen, Anthony |
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Stephen, Michael |
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Stern, Michael |
Mates, Michael | Stewart, Allan |
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian | Streeter, Gary |
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Sumberg, David |
Mellor, Rt Hon David | Sweeney, Walter |
Merchant, Piers | Sykes, John |
Mills, Iain | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
Moate, Sir Roger | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
Molyneaux, Rt Hon James | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
Monro, Sir Hector | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Temple-Morris, Peter |
Moss, Malcolm | Thomason, Roy |
Nelson, Anthony | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
Neubert, Sir Michael | Thornton, Sir Malcolm |
Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Thurnham, Peter |
Nicholls, Patrick | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Tracey, Richard |
Norris, Steve | Tredinnick, David |
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Trend, Michael |
Oppenheim, Phillip | Trimble, David |
Ottaway, Richard | Trotter, Neville |
Page, Richard | Twinn, Dr Ian |
Paice, James | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
Paisley, Rev Ian | Viggers, Peter |
Patnick, Irvine | Walden, George |
Patten, Rt Hon John | Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) |
Pawsey, James | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Waller, Gary |
Pickles, Eric | Ward, John |
Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
Porter, David (Waveney) | Waterson, Nigel |
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Watts, John |
Rathbone, Tim | Wells, Bowen |
Redwood, Rt Hon John | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Whitney, Ray |
Richards, Rod | Whittingdale, John |
Riddick, Graham | Widdecombe, Ann |
Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Wilkinson, John |
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Willetts, David |
Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Wilshire, David |
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld) |
Ross, William (E Londonderry) | Wolfson, Mark |
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) | Yeo, Tim |
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
Ryder, Rt Hon Richard | |
Sackville, Tom | Tellers for the Noes |
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim | Mr. Timothy Wood and Mr. Andrew Mitchell. |
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas | |
Shaw, David (Dover) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Main Question put and agreed to.
§
Ordered,
That Mr. James Cran, Mr. Charles Hendry, Mr. Andrew Hunter, Sir James Kilfedder, Mr. Eddie McGrady, Mr. Ken
895
Maginnis, Mr. Jim Marshall, Mr. Peter Robinson, Mr. Clive Soley, Mr. Richard Spring, Mr. John D. Taylor, Mr. David Wilshire and Mr. Mark Wolfson be members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.—[Mr. Patnick]