HC Deb 16 March 1994 vol 239 cc872-4
11. Mr. Thomason

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what reports he has had so far about council tax levels.

Mr. Curry

The average band C headline council tax is £516. [HON. MEMBERS: "Average?"] Within that average, it will be found that the average for Conservative authorities is a great deal lower than the average for Labour or Liberal authorities. That represents an increase of 2.2 per cent. on the 1993–94 average.

Mr. Thomason

Has my hon. Friend read the speech that the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) made to the Labour local government conference on 4 February, when he said, "I am proud of the"—

Madam Speaker

Order. The Executive are responsible for Government policies; they are not responsible for the activities of any Opposition Member. Will the hon. Gentleman come to his point and ask a question right away?

Mr. Thomason

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Labour party has—

Madam Speaker

Order. Let me explain. I think it only right for me to explain to the House that the Government are not responsible for the activities or the policies of the Labour party at Question Time.[Interruption.] No, it is right for me to be heard, so that the House understands me. The Executive are responsible for Government policies only; that is their accountability during Question Time.

Mr. Thomason

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government have consistently demonstrated that Labour is a party of high spending and high taxation in local government?

Madam Speaker

Not very well done, but just about passable.

Mr. Curry

I do not need to demonstrate that fact; I let it speak for itself.

Mr. Betts

Would the Minister care to admit that his use of band comparisons in regard to council tax is spurious and bogus? Let us suppose that two comparable authorities raise the same amount from the same number of properties, and their average council tax is the same. Very different comparisons could be made in respect of different bands. Authorities containing more properties in band A, the lowest band—which are more likely to be Labour controlled—would, as a consequence of that fact alone, have higher rates for the other bands. That is a simple mathematical truth. Perhaps the Minister would like to verify it, and also verify the political truth that Labour authorities cost less and give better services.

Mr. Curry

I notice that, whenever someone is about to say something that is manifestly not the case, it is described as some sort of irrefutable truth. It is not the case that Labour authorities cost less. The only sensible basis for comparison is comparing like with like, and that can be done only by making comparisons across the bands—which clearly demonstrates that Conservative councils are setting lower council taxes.

If the hon. Gentleman is saying that the total volume of tax depends on the configuration of properties in a council area, let me tell him that that is so evident that it is hardly worth debating.

Mr. Pickles

Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), is not my hon. Friend being unkind to the Labour party, because surely the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) clearly said that his spurious claim was based solely on the fact that Labour authorities have more properties in the lower bands? Has my hon. Friend noticed that similar Conservative authorities are a lot cheaper, so, band for band, Conservative councils cost people a lot less?

Mr. Curry

Perhaps my hon. Friend would mention the fact that if Labour authorities have more properties in the lower bands, they are much more likely to get more revenue support grant from the Government and to benefit from council tax relief and various other forms of relief. That means that, despite the fact that Labour councils get more support, they still cost more—they could choose to lower their council tax.