HC Deb 14 March 1994 vol 239 cc611-2
12. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now make it his policy to ensure an elected body for Wales.

Mr. Redwood

We do not need another elected body in Wales.

Mr. Jones

We have had 15 years of Conservative Government, during which we have seen greater centralisation than ever before in the history of democracy, powers stripped away from local authorities and Conservatives appointed to quangos in Wales. The Minister of State has just told us that he is to visit Barcelona—Catalonia is the most successful economy in Europe. Is not it time that the Government learnt that the people of Wales now want their own Parliament?

Mr. Redwood

I am very interested in the idea that Catalonia is the most successful economy in western Europe. I thought that Spain had an unemployment rate of about one in four of the work force. I certainly would not want such a rate for Wales and his comment shows that there is no progress in the hon. Gentleman's views.

We do not want another body that taxes, regulates and legislates—too many laws already exist. We need to deregulate to make the task of business easier, so that people in Wales can have real jobs and more choice.

Mr. Ian Bruce

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the whole thrust of Government policy is to ensure that decisions are made in schools by governing bodies and in hospitals by trusts and that it is not designed to try to create yet another layer of bureaucracy? Surely the unitary authority programme that we have brought forward has been warmly welcomed in Wales. There has been no drive towards creating a third layer of local government.

Mr. Redwood

My hon. Friend is right. He has answered another part of the previous question, because we restore real power to people—parents and patients—and offer choices in public services which Opposition Members would deny people. That is exactly the kind of democracy that is best and closest to people. An assembly would have to take powers away from local government and that would cause rows in the Opposition camp as well.

Mr. Alan W. Williams

Does not the Minister feel a sense of shame that he has to appoint about 800 people to quangos and that they are responsible for about one third of public expenditure in Wales? Should not democracy mean government of all the people, by all the people, for all the people"? Is not the use of unaccountable Tory placemen a corruption of democracy?

Mr. Redwood

I believe that local councils appoint quite a lot of people to the governing bodies of schools. I think that that is perfectly healthy and it is an analogue to what I am doing on behalf of Parliament and the people of Wales, in appointing people to bodies charged by the House, often under Labour legislation, to carry out certain tasks. As for spending, by far and away the biggest part of the Welsh Office delegated budget passes directly to local government in the form of a bloc grant.