HC Deb 08 March 1994 vol 239 cc223-34 8.30 pm
Mr. Ingram

I beg to move amendment No. 23, in page 11, line 44, at end insert 'but any such regulations shall take into account that it is in the public interest for disabled persons to make available their special knowledge through voluntary work and through appointment to relevant bodies and committees.' We feel that this amendment is very important. We hope that the Government will treat it seriously. Throughout proceedings on the Bill, they have treated many of our arguments in a genuinely serious way and we ask that this amendment be given the same balanced approach. We also ask that it be judged not merely on its cost implications —I suspect that the overall cost of implementing the amendment will be small in terms of the cost of the overall Bill. I hope that we will not get into a cost implication argument.

The amendment simply calls on the Government to provide in regulation a means by which people in receipt of incapacity benefit—the new benefit—or the existing invalidity benefit will be allowed to do voluntary work or work in a user body or committee without fear of their entitlement to benefit being affected. The Bill as it stands already provides an exemption for local authority councillors. Their work as elected representatives will not debar them from entitlement to invalidity benefit or the new incapacity benefit.

That principle must be right because to do otherwise would undermine the fundamental democratic right that disabled people should not be debarred from fully participating in local authorities on the ground of cost. I hope that that is one right that will never be dispatched to the dustbin of history by the Government but will be constantly protected and supported by them.

In Committee, the Under-Secretary made a further concession—that the disregard that will apply to members of disability appeals tribunals will be extended to members of the advisory board which deals with the disability living allowance. That concession is welcome. However, it does not go far enough, and that is why we have tabled this amendment. It is right to extend that concession, but why will the Government not go one step further—we argue that it is a small step further—and concede a similar disregard for those people with disabilities who carry out such useful voluntary work on a range of committees and bodies, which benefit from the input of a disabled person?

We can all give examples of organisations, bodies and committees which would benefit greatly from the input of a disabled person. Disabled persons should be able to serve on any committee as of right but there are specific bodies, organisations and committees which would benefit greatly from the input of a disabled person because they understand the problems associated with not only their own disability but disabilities in general.

Clearly, bodies such as school governing bodies, community health councils and the boards of voluntary organisations which have been assisting Labour Members to understand the underlying importance and effect of this Bill would benefit from having disabled people serving on them and giving advice in that specific way. That would cover the whole breadth of voluntary organisations.

As I said, many boards, committees and groups would benefit from having disabled people serving on them. Of course, the argument will be that they should be debarred by virtue of the fact that they will lose their benefit.

By allowing the disregard for those serving on the DLA advisory board, the Government have partly accepted that argument. However, they do not go far enough—they do not take the logic of the argument and extend it further. If it is appropriate to allow the disregard for those serving on the DLA advisory board, why is it not appropriate for those serving on the Social Security Advisory Committee and the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council?

That question was raised in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn). It was interesting to see the Minister's response. He said: We have made a concession tonight. It is a little hurtful for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that we should go further. There is an end point and one can only go so far."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 22 February 1993; c. 364.] The concession did not go very far at all. I do not know why the Minister was hurt by our questions, other than the fact that he accepted and understood the point that we were making and the need for the concession to be extended. The end point has been reached much too quickly. It is not that we wanted it to be reached in the way that it was in Committee but our arguments were dismissed. I am sorry that we hurt the Under-Secretary's feelings; however, it was not our intention to bother about his feelings but to have our argument accepted by the Government.

We must examine the existing legislation which deals with certain aspects of the principle of those with disabilities serving on various committees. The Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 lists a number of bodies on which it is desirable to have someone who has a knowledge of disability or who is disabled. These include the housing advisory committees, the social security advisory committee, the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council, the Transport Users Consultative Committee and other relevant advisory committees which deal with the range of utilities and other bodies. The 1970 Act is reinforced by the Disabled Persons Act 1986 which set out the need to include the experiences of people with disabilities on councils, committees and other bodies.

Why should we ignore the purposes of those Acts of Parliament? The Acts were laid down after careful debate and consideration in the House. There was a genuine recognition that disabled people needed much more positive discrimination and much more support in coming into the wider community, without feeling in any way that they would be debarred or suffer as a consequence.

That is why I ask the Government why they will not go further with the concession that they made in Committee about those who serve on the DLA advisory board. Why not take the concession a step further? If it is on the basis of cost, let us be told that. If it is not on that basis, where is the principle?

Why will the Government not accept that there is a lot to be gained not only by disabled people but all of us for disabled people to serve on these important advisory councils and committees which advise the House, local authorities and a range of other bodies? Clearly, to go that little step further would be a great boost to disabled people who want to serve and who do not want to operate under the fear that they may lose invalidity entitlement by serving on such bodies.

In tabling this amendment, we recognise that the Government intend to introduce a new provision to allow incapacity benefit claimants to engage in up to 16 hours voluntary work a week. That was said by the Secretary of State on Second Reading and reiterated in Committee. Clearly, that provision will be welcome. However, the Government have not said that the concession will apply to existing invalidity benefit recipients—those who are in receipt of benefit at present and those who will be eligible for invalidity benefit before April 1995.

Once again, that raises the question why the Government, having gone so far, will not go that little step further. If it is on the basis of cost, let us hear the cost arguments. If it is because of some other underlying principle, let us hear it. The House should debate why the Government have no intention of conceding that in relation to the areas in which they have made a concession, and taken it a little step further.

The National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux has set out the argument well in a briefing document which I understand has been given to all hon. Members. It would be useful to set out the background that was related in the document. NACAB says that it and other agencies which depend on volunteers, such as the Volunteer Centre UK, the National Association of Volunteer Bureaux, Mencap, the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation and Arthritis Care, are experiencing problems with people who are claiming invalidity benefit and who wish to become volunteers.

We know that working as a volunteer is only permitted at present if the work is considered to be therapeutic, and that is defined as medically beneficial to the claimant. However, NACAB has pointed out that many claimants suffer from medical conditions where their work as a volunteer is not medically beneficial, but neither is it harmful. Clearly, undertaking voluntary work may encourage people back into a normal work environment. It may give them confidence in themselves, and may encourage them to seek full-time employment. It gives them a sense of dignity, and an awareness of what they can and cannot do in a normal work environment. By working as a volunteer, they may be encouraged back into work; assuming that work is available to them.

NACAB points out that, in its experience, the current rule means that recipients of invalidity benefit are reluctant to become volunteers and that those who are already volunteers are giving it up as they fear that it will affect their entitlement to benefit. It has given a couple of examples, and it is worth putting them on record so that we understand the debate in relation to the amendment.

NACAB cites a case in the west midlands where a volunteer was asked to attend an interview with the Benefits Agency about his medical condition. That individual suffers from osteoarthritis, and clearly had some days when he had great difficulty walking. The man had previously been in industry but had to give up because of his health. He fears that he is to lose his benefit.

Another example—again from the west midlands—is that of a volunteer who received a request to return her invalidity benefit book to the Benefits Agency because of her work at a NACAB office in the west midlands. She had previously contacted the Benefits Agency to confirm that she could do such voluntary work, and she had obtained a note from her doctor which stated that it was therapeutic. The Benefits Agency did not even question her first, and her benefit was subsequently reinstated. However, she suffered two weeks of distress as she clearly thought that she was to lose her invalidity benefit.

In a previous debate on the rates of benefit, we set out the level at which the rates are being paid at the moment under invalidity benefit and the rates which are to be paid. Those are not princely sums, and they do not make people feel like millionaires. They are not walking around with pound notes coming out of their pockets, but when someone feels that he is to lose benefit, it causes him great worry.

That is the underlying import and purpose of the amendment. It is important, and I am sure that the Minister will genuinely respond to it, but we need a clear statement tonight from the Government that nobody need fear losing their entitlement to invalidity benefit, or incapacity benefit, by carrying out voluntary work. Many disabled people benefit from their work in the voluntary sector, and the voluntary sector also derives extensive benefits. It is not just a case of input from the person with the disability. Everyone else benefits greatly from working with disabled people.

Those areas have the benefit of the disabled volunteer in terms of the valuable input which those people can make to an understanding of the wide range of issues dealt with in advisory groups and committees. Those people make major contributions, and it simply cannot be right that they have any fear hanging over them. That fear, of course, denies the rest of the community the invaluable input of an important group of our citizens.

By accepting the amendment, the Government will send out a clear message in advance of the debate which is to take place in the House on Friday. It will be another step forward for disabled people, and they will benefit from knowing that they are to be welcomed into the voluntary sector. That would give them confidence and the understanding of their fellow workers that they are to be welcomed into the work place. It would give them an understanding that there is a future for them.

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The amendment deals with such issues, and tries to set out the way forward. If the Government are not prepared to accept the amendment, I hope that we will hear tonight whether they are prepared to have it debated elsewhere, and to allow it to be reconsidered during the final stages of the Bill. I appreciate that Ministers are reluctant to accept amendments tabled by the Opposition but, if they are not prepared to accept it, they should at least give a message that they are prepared to accept the principle underlying it.

Mr. Alan Howarth

Like the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram), I welcome the Government's decision on the social security uprating that volunteers on incapacity benefit will be able to do up to 16 hours of voluntary work a week without losing their benefit. I speak personally on the matter, and on behalf of the all-party parliamentary panel on charities.

There is no question that people have been deterred by the rules of the benefit system, which effectively discourage them from undertaking voluntary work. I will mention one instance from a report sent to the hon. Members by the Cleveland council for voluntary service. A volunteer called Anne says: I have had serious problems with my health and confidence. I went to Middlesbrough Volunteer Bureau because I wanted to do something that would help my confidence. I got involved with an organisation which takes aid to children in a Romanian orphanage. I really wanted to go to Romania myself to see what my fundraising had achieved. I was told that if I went my benefit would be suspended while I was away. I promised that I would take a mobile phone so that I could be contacted if a job came up but the benefit office still would not let me go and pay my benefits. Like the hon. Member for East Kilbride, I hope that the Government may find it possible to bring in the new concession earlier so that it applies to recipients of invalidity benefit as well as incapacity benefit. That would be a graceful and appropriate feature of the Government's new initiative, "Make a Difference", to encourage volunteering. I think that it can only have been an oversight that it was not announced when the initiative was launched last week.

I know that an explanation was given in another place that it would be impractical to do so because the concession would depend upon the operation of the new objective test, but I do not understand why that should be so. I hope that the additional change will be made.

Clear advice should be given at all events, to the Benefits Agency medical service to disregard voluntary work. It must be clear to all concerned that there can be no presumption that someone who undertakes those hours of voluntary work is fit for other work on account of that. There is a qualitative difference between voluntary work and paid employment. Voluntary work can be much more varied and flexible than paid employment is likely to be. The psychological frame of mind associated with voluntary work is different because there is always the feeling that if the stress and strain becomes too great, it is possible for the volunteer to withdraw.

Nor should we insist that voluntary work must be "therapeutic", although I believe that it is—in almost every case such work enhances the well-being of the person who undertakes it.

As has been argued, we should extend the exemptions. I welcome the extension to include people who undertake voluntary work as councillors, members of disability appeal tribunals and members of the disability living allowance advisory board, but I want the concessions to go much further and to cover the whole range of public service committees and organisations, which have been substantially extended, as we know. As long ago as the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, the desirability of disabled people serving on such committees was stated, but we are a quarter of a century on and we need to make better progress.

The deregulation task force has a sub-group on volunteers and benefits. I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister will want to listen carefully to what it has to say, perhaps shortly.

Charitable and voluntary activity benefits the giver and the receiver. Like the unemployed, retired people and many others, the disabled are able to give something to society in that way and to gain new skills and fulfilment. The bonds of our society are strengthened in the process. Voluntary work by the disabled is not only of direct and immediate value to society but, by enhancing their skills, morale and health, should be seen as an investment.

My right hon. Friend the Minister may tell us, however, that a cost problem is associated with bringing the concession forward. I very much hope that if that is the problem, he will share it with us and explain the cost-benefit analysis that his Department has made.

A year ago, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said: We must do more to recognise, support and encourage the habit of volunteering, which cements together our society and is one of the great glories of our lives. I agree.

Ms Rachel Squire (Dunfermline, West)

It gives me great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth), as I entirely agree with his remarks. I also welcome the opportunity to follow the many excellent comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram).

I sincerely hope that there will be no opposition to amendment No. 23 and that the Minister will feel able to support it. Clearly, it is in the public interest that disabled people should be able to give us all the benefit of their experience and abilities.

Clause 6 takes into account that a person's incapacity for work should not prevent him from making a valuable contribution to the community as an elected representative or a councillor. All hon. Members present must know of people who are suffering from chronic illness or disability, but who serve their community as elected representatives and in many other capacities.

Hon. Members who served on the Standing Committee that considered the Bill, who are unfortunately notable by their absence from the Conservative Benches, may recall that I quoted in support of my argument a senior Member of Parliament asking the Government to consider such an amendment. The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon quoted the Prime Minister, and I have here a press release issued in 1987 by the then Minister of State for Social Security and the Disabled, who subsequently became the Prime Minister, as hon. Members know. At that time he said Experience shows that people with long-term sickness or disability can give valuable services as councillors even though they cannot undertake normal employment. It would be wrong if they were deterred by the rules of the benefit system from contributing to local democracy as elected representatives. I certainly hope that the Prime Minister will recognise that that is what the amendment is about. It recognises the valuable contribution that people can make through voluntary work and appointment to serve on public bodies. That involvement and that contribution should not make someone fear that he will lose his benefit because he will be judged fully capable of paid employment.

All hon. Members have had considerable dealings with voluntary groups and community organisations in their constituencies. I am sure that hon. Members may have referred constituents with problems to the relevant voluntary group and community organisation for their support and expertise. There is no doubt in my mind that groups that deal with cancer, arthritis, heart disease and so forth can be an instant source of support. We should recognise the contribution made by volunteers who join such groups.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride has produced many valuable arguments. For example, he welcomed the Minister's announcement that volunteers who receive incapacity benefit will be able to do voluntary work for up to 16 hours per week, but said that we want that concession to be introduced as soon as possible, so that it can apply to recipients of the existing invalidity benefit. My hon. Friend also made many splendid remarks about the range of organisations to which volunteers may contribute and the essential role that disabled people can play by advising certain committees and by being consulted in fulfilment of the terms of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride also mentioned the fact that disabled people who wish to be volunteers fear that they will lose their benefit by doing such voluntary work. He quoted some examples that were cited by citizens advice bureaux. Once again I remind the Minister that two people may well be able to get out of a chair, sit down again, perhaps walk 50 yards, use their hands and carry out what we regard as the other normal physical functions, but that there may be vast differences in the time, effort and discomfort involved. A person with chronic arthritis may need three or more attempts just to get out of a chair, whereas somebody like me can get up in 10 seconds flat without any difficulty. This distinction must be recognised when we are dealing with the contribution that people can make as volunteers, as opposed to paid employees.

I have mentioned the public's interest in the Government's acceptance of this amendment, but there is also the personal interest of the disabled person doing voluntary work. It can only benefit individuals to have their worth and their contribution to the community recognised, reaffirmed and enhanced through voluntary work. There is no substitute for the help and support that a disabled person can provide for someone else who has recently been afflicted with the same or a similar disability. That is why there are so many voluntary groups providing specific support.

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The Government have made great play of attracting people to serve on public bodies. Opposition Members tend to refer to such bodies as quangos. In any case, the Government have tried to demonstrate how eager they are to attract a diverse range of people and of experience and a cross-section of the community. If the Government are serious about that, they ought to support the amendment and, thereby, ensure that no sick or disabled person will lose benefit because he or she contributes to a public body or will be deterred from serving.

Mr. Pike

Many councils are about to devolve housing functions further down the line. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be wrong if a disabled person were unable to play a voluntary role in that sector? Such people could make a special contribution by representing the interests of the disabled in general.

Ms Squire

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. It is vital that disabled people be given an opportunity to make a full contribution to the development of housing. We have all seen new buildings that were supposed to make provision for disabled people but whose doors are not wide enough to take a wheel chair.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, I remind the Minister that on Friday of this week the House will deal with the Second Reading of the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill. I understand that, earlier today, the Prime Minister suggested that the Government might actually support that Bill. Unfortunately, I missed the right hon. Gentleman's comment as I had to deal with other business. There is no doubt that, if the Government tell a disabled person, "Your choice is between voluntary work with no incapacity benefit and benefit with no voluntary work," they are indulging in gross discrimination.

By doing that, the Government will deny sick or disabled people valuable opportunities to live a normal life, to rebuild their confidence and to gain the skills that could eventually help them to return to paid employment. That is discrimination of a deeply offensive nature. How can the Government claim to be caring, compassionate and committed to community care if they behave in such a way? How can they close the doors of opportunity and benefit to the individual and to the community as a whole?

I urge the Government to recognise, encourage and applaud the unique contribution that disabled people can make to the community and to support the amendment.

Mr. Scott

I should like to start by saying that I found the arguments of the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Ms Squire) particularly persuasive. I know that the hon. Lady has much experience of the voluntary sector and I listened carefully to her remarks.

I shall not urge the House to accept the amendment, although I agree warmly with the principle behind most of it. The only part that gives me some concern—I shall return to that matter in the course of my remarks—is the last few words: appointment to relevant bodies and committees". I want to enter a reservation about that.

In practice, the regulations that we have in mind already are intended to include reference to voluntary work, so I see no reason to specify on the face of the Bill that the regulations should do that. It is our intention to provide a regulation-making power to specify that, where a person undertakes more than a prescribed amount of work, he will be treated as capable of work.

The amendment introduces to the regulation-making power a reference to people with disabilities who are involved in voluntary work and the valuable contribution that they can make to it, through appointment to relevant bodies and committees, and states that it should be a fact to take into account when making regulations under the power. It makes no material differance to the regulation-making power as currently drafted because the regulations allow us to specify any category of work.

Hon. Members are already aware of our intentions for the regulations made under this clause. We intend to carry forward the therapeutic work rule, allowing people to undertake work up to a limit of 16 hours and/or £43 a week, where it is accepted as beneficial to their condition. Equally, we are bringing forward special rules for both councillors and disability appeal tribunal members.

As the House is already aware, however, we are extending the special rule for disability appeal tribunal members to members of the disability living allowance advisory board. It will allow the first day of attendance at DLAAB meetings in any one week to be disregarded. Only further days of attendance that week would affect a person's benefit. It recognises the fact that allowances paid for a day's attendance to DLAAB members would consistently take them above the therapeutic work limit.

Mr. Pike

I would be grateful if the Minister could explain how widely he sees the therapeutic benefit being interpreted. It is possible for it to be interpreted extremely tightly or fairly liberally. Most hon. Members, and certainly those present at the moment, would prefer a liberal interpretation.

Mr. Scott

It generally is interpreted in a liberal way. If the hon. Gentleman has the details of particular circumstances in which he feels it is being interpreted in a more restrictive way, I would be grateful if he would contact me about them.

Mr. Dewar

I did not have the advantage of serving on the Committee. I just want to follow the Minister's argument. Is he saying that this amendment is unnecessary because everything that it attempts to do is already contained in the Bill, in the regulation-making powers or in the way in which the Government intend to use those powers?

Mr. Scott

I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance, with the reservation that I have entered about relevant bodies and committees. I would not want to rule out that altogether, but there would be power in the regulations to include them. At the moment we have voluntary work and therapeutic work, and we have the special arrangements for disability appeal tribunals and the disability living allowance advisory board. If we were to go beyond that in specifying relevant bodies and organisations, I should want to consider carefully the extent of it and how particularly relevant it was to the purpose of the special arrangements that we are already making to allow and indeed encourage recipients of incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance to undertake voluntary work for up to 16 hours a week without any effect on their benefit.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced at Second Reading our intention to introduce the regulations. I believe that the change is not just consistent with the Government's wider objectives to encourage voluntary work but is regarded highly and supported right across the House and in another place. The work done by charities and voluntary organisations is immensely important. As Minister with responsibility for disabled people, I am constantly in touch with a whole range of voluntary organisations.

I may have told the House on another occasion that the previous holder of the French equivalent of my job always regarded as one of the glories of this country the infrastructure of voluntary and charitable effort and the way in which these bodies supported and worked with the Government at both national and local level in order to achieve their different objectives.

Mr. Alan Howarth

Would my right hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Scott

If my hon. Friend will give me a moment to end the sentence, I shall certainly give way to him.

The work done by those organisations is immensely important and it has a second role that is important, in that it can be an important and significant way of helping people to make a gradual transition back to full-time work.

Mr. Howarth

May I ask my right hon. Friend for additional clarification? He said that it was the Government's intention to ensure that recipients of incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance would benefit from those concessions. Is it also their intention that the concessions should be applied to recipients of invalidity benefit or, if he is not able to say that immediately, will he say that the Government are prepared to look sympathetically at that possibility?

Mr. Scott

At the point of change, although people who are on invalidity benefit at the moment will continue with their existing entitlement to the rate of invalidity benefit that they at present draw, they will be in receipt of incapacity benefit at that point, so they will qualify under the new arrangements. I hope that that deals with my hon. Friend's point.

Mr. Howarth

I am simply asking, are the Government prepared to bring forward that concession?

Mr. Scott

I have had a number of representations about bringing forward the scheme in advance of the April 1995 date. In part for the reason that I have just mentioned, I would want to give careful consideration to the implications. We are studying the scheme. I am not without sympathy for the idea, but I cannot give my hon. Friend a straight answer at this moment.

Certainly, the role of the provision is immensely important to the individuals concerned and to the charities and voluntary organisations that benefit from their important contribution to their work. It is also, I think, important in enabling people to make a gradual transition back to work. I hope very much that recipients of incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance will be able to take advantage of the new provision to build up their confidence and experience in a range of ways.

I therefore hope that, acknowledging the Government's altitude towards voluntary work, the concessions that we have already made and the fact that I have shown that we are perhaps open to persuasion on a number of other points that might be included if we accepted the amendment as a whole, the Opposition will not feel it necessary to press the amendment.

Mr. Ingram

I reiterate and reinforce the compliment that the Minister of State paid to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West (Ms Squire) on her contribution to the debate. I hope that the many strong points that she made will force him just that little bit further —perhaps not tonight, but in his further deliberations.

It was a pity that the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) was not on the Committee with us; we would have welcomed his contributions to our proceedings. It is a mystery that he was not a member, given his expertise and knowledge.

Mr. Scott

It is nothing to do with me.

Mr. Ingram

I notice that the Minister says that it is nothing to do with him, so we can perhaps point the finger elsewhere.

The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon told us about the deregulation task force. That is a group dealing with volunteers and benefits. I do not know whether it is an expert group of 80 or indeed whether its members are experts at all, but I am apprehensive about what it is likely to come out with at the end of the day. My mother always said to me, "If you can learn something new each day, you are progressing," and I have learnt something new today about the deregulation task force and the group dealing with that area. It is something that I will have to consider further.

I am perplexed by the Minister's reluctance on the issue. Obviously he supports the weight of the argument. He understands the logic of it. He understands the principle underlying it. We pressed him on the subject of costs. He did not come back and say that there were significant costs there, and obviously it is not a cost argument that is debarring him from accepting the amendment. I listened carefully to what he said about the final part of the amendment, which gives him some cause for worry and concern, and I appreciate that he perhaps needs further time to examine it.

While listening to the Minister's response, we considered whether it would be worth while to push the amendment to a vote. Many groups and individuals outside the House would be glad to know that we were prepared to argue for it and vote accordingly. However, we are prepared to give the Minister a little longer to consider the points that have been advanced, not just in this debate but in all the representations that have been made to him by voluntary groups, his hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon and others involved with disabled people.

I hope that what we have argued will become a matter of fact. If the power exists in current regulations, I hope that in the near future we shall see a change accordingly.

Mr. Scott

As the Opposition have been consistently critical of regulation-making powers, I make the point that if we wished to make the change, it would be comparatively easy to do so.

9.15 pm
Mr. Ingram

We have been critical about how the Government use regulations, not about regulatory powers. I do not want to go back over the 48 references to regulations in 11 pages of a 17-page Bill or the increase in statutory instruments since 1985. Until then, an average of 2,000 statutory instruments were used by Labour and Conservative Governments, but, since 1985, there has been an exponential growth and the current figure is now well in excess of 3,000 and we expect that figure to continue to rise.

If the power exists, I hope that the Minister will be prepared to give genuine consideration to changing the regulations. But it still leaves hanging the question of those on invalidity benefit until April 1995. Why cannot they be given that small concession? I hope that the Minister will be prepared to go back and talk to those who hold the purse strings and will make the final decision, and that we shall see a positive development in that regard.

The debate has added to the weight of knowledge on the subject, and I hope that the Minister can use it to good advantage in the future. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: No. 10, in page 13, line 27, after `(3)' insert 'For the period of three years from Royal Assent'.

No. 11, in page 13, line 28, leave out 'the first' and insert `any'.

No. 12, in page 13, line 32, leave out 'or (6)' and insert '(6) or (7)'.

No. 13, in page 13, line 35, leave out '(1)'.—[Mr. Scott.]

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