HC Deb 07 March 1994 vol 239 cc16-7
30. Mr. Mackinlay

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what further measures he proposes to extend the openness of government in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Waldegrave

The Government's proposals were set out in July's White Paper. The new code of practice on Government information comes into force at the beginning of April.

Mr. Mackinlay

Is not there an urgent need for opportunities to be given to hon. Members and to others so that they are able to probe and scrutinise the political conduct of the Law Officers—not only the conduct of the Attorney-General but, especially, that of the Lord Chancellor, in the light of weekend reports of him prevailing on Lord Justice Wood to resign early and what Lord Justice Purchase referred to as his unconstitutional attack on judicial independence"?

Mr. Waldegrave

That is not a matter for me.

Mr. John Marshall

Is not one of the issues that concerns parents most the quality of education in local authority schools? Is my right hon. Friend surprised that the advocates of local government do not believe in publishing the facts about that?

Mr. Waldegrave

It is extraordinary how those who, under certain circumstances, are the loudest in their demands for open government do not seem to welcome it when it comes closer to home.

Mr. Meacher

What is the point of Ministers pretending to have greater openness in government when, at the same time, they are signing public interest immunity certificates to prevent disclosure of what is embarrassing to them? Is not the automatic and blanket concealment of a whole class of documents on the ground of public interest, irrespective of content, a complete denial of open government? Will the Chancellor therefore secure a change in the rules so that Ministers are directed to use those certificates, if at all, solely when they believe that the national interest is genuinely at stake and not merely for their own sordid, political convenience?

Mr. Waldegrave

The hon. Gentleman should know better. Public interest immunity certificates have been signed by Ministers of both parties over many years. I have no doubt that the debates that will take place in the coming week and after Sir Richard Scott reports will take the issue rather further forward than the ignorant remarks of the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Matthew Taylor

How will the Minister publicise the new rights of the public to information? Will he make resources available to the ombudsman to allow any requests for work that may arise from those rights to be met?

Mr. Waldegrave

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to say again that we have doubled the resources available to the ombudsman. He is right that, for the new system to be given a fair chance of working, the ombudsman must have the necessary resources. I agree with the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) that it is quite right under the charter to spend resources on, for example, leafleting people to ensure that they know of their rights. Indeed, the hon. Member for Oldham, West said that we have not done enough of that.

Mr. Peter Bottomley

Will my right hon. Friend remind the House and the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) of the words of Lord Justice Bingham on public interest immunity certificates? He said that Ministers had the right to waive rights but not the right to waive duties. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman and the press should pay attention to what the judges themselves have said on that matter.

Mr. Waldegrave

Not for the first time, my hon. Friend is rather better informed that the hon. Member for Oldham, West.

Mr. Barnes

Is not there a lot of work to be done on openness because privatisation has helped to close down a Select Committee of the House—that dealing with energy—agency arrangements mean that we cannot ask questions about certain matters and the closing of Parliament for vast periods again means that scrutiny cannot take place during that time? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman's Department can influence other Departments and become involved in charters that say something.

Mr. Waldegrave

It is not true that one cannot ask questions of agencies and it is absolutely essential that hon. Members should do so. As for the hon. Gentleman inviting me to draw having shorter recesses to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, I shall do so, but not in the certainty that he will he pleased with the idea.