EXISTING JOINT BOARDS AND COMMITTEES AND PORT HEALTH DISTRICTS (Hansard, 16 June 1994)

§ Mr. Gwilym Jones
I beg to move amendment No. 67, in page 37, line 38, after 'councils' insert 'in relation to such areas in Wales'.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also Government amendments Nos. 68 to 70.

§ Mr. Jones
Clause 50 provides the mechanism for the transfer of property held by existing county councils in Wales and required to be applied in accordance with section 90 of the Welsh Church Act 1914. To avoid the division of a property into 22 funds—one for each council —it is to be vested in the lead authorities. The amendments make minor technical changes to clarify the provisions for apportionment of the funds, which will take effect on 1 April 1996.

§ Mr. Murphy
The Minister will recall that there was a lively debate in Committee on the 1914 Act, and I hope that he will be able to indicate which particular Welsh authorities will be designated lead authorities. We argued in Committee—but not today because the argument was concluded in Committee, if not in our favour—that every local authority should act as those authorities dealing with the Welsh church fund moneys.
My first point is one of definition. Page 38 of the 1914 Act, at line 24, uses a word that my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) asks to be interpreted by the Minister—"eleemosynary". The "Oxford English Dictionary" indicates that it pertains to alms giving. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower points out that one of the Bronte sisters wrote that eleemosynary relief never yet tranquillised the working classes. It seems that operation of the 1914 Act is important to not just the working classes but everybody in the Principality.
The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs conducted an investigation only last year into the preservation of historic buildings and ancient monuments. I remind the Minister that it indicated that the Welsh Office should consider how the funds could be restructured on a more equitable and consistent basis for transferring them to the proposed unitary authorities. The Government replied: Each county council?— or leading authority, as it will now be— is required to administer its Welsh Church Act fund in accordance with a scheme which sets out the charitable and other purposes to which the Fund's property will be applied. Each scheme has to be approved by the Secretary of State. The Department is not aware of any instance of a council failing to comply with the provision of its scheme but, in the light of the Committee's concerns, it proposes to invite the Charity Commissioners to review the administration of the Funds to see what improvements may be made. It would be a good idea for the Government to undertake a consultative exercise and to make recommendations to lead authorities as to how best the 1914 Act could be operated in some instances. In some parts of Wales it works extremely well, but in others, not so well. I will be grateful for the Minister's comments.

§ Mr. Rowlands
I remind the Minister of the role that the Welsh church funds have played in Mid-Glamorgan, in supporting and upholding the fabric of many chapels and churches in our communities and of the rightful necessity 831 for that work to continue. If the Minister is to establish lead authorities, I hope that one of them will be really representative of the valley communities and that the funds' representation will not be centred on Cardiff. I hope that the Minister will now give the assurance that I sought in Committee.

§ Mr. Gwilym Jones
I recognise the aspirations of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) and there is considerable merit in his comments. I shall see what we can do to achieve that which he seeks.
As to lead authorities, I remind the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) that I made him happy, but upset my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Evans), by suggesting that the lead authority for Gwent would probably be Torfaen, on the basis that the computers are currently located there and the administrative arrangements are already to hand. However, our arrangements will ensure that all 22 authorities will fully participate appropriately in the administration of the church funds.
I am advised that the word identified by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) means the relief of the poor.
As to the point about restructuring, which was raised in the Select Committee report, we referred the matter to the Charity Commissioners. The hon. Member for Torfaen suggested consultation, and there is merit in that. That is something that we should examine, but not in the course of local government reorganisation. I am aware that the Wales Council for Voluntary Action has also made worthwhile suggestions about what might be done with the church funds, but those are all matters that we should consider later.