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§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Iain Sproat)With permission, Madam Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the future of the Sports Council of Great Britain.
On 9 July last year, I told the House that we were suspending proposals to replace the Sports Council with separate United Kingdom and English bodies while we took a fresh look at structures for the future administration of British sport.
We have reaffirmed the conclusion of our 1991 policy review that the combination of Great Britain and England functions in the current Sports Council hinders their effective development. We, therefore, intend to set up two new bodies to be called, respectively, the United Kingdom Sports Council and the English Sports Council. England will thus be in the same position as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
The UKSC will consist of 10 members: an independent chairman, the chairmen of the four home country sports councils, one representative each of the British Olympic Association, of amateur non-Olympic sport, and of professional sport, and two independent members with strong sporting credentials, one from a professional and one from an amateur sporting background.
The UK Sports Council will be very different from what we rejected last year: different in its relationship to the home country councils, in its functions and in its size. On the international scene, it will represent the UK; it will seek to increase greatly the influence of the UK in international sport; and it will co-ordinate policy for bringing major international events to the UK. In national affairs, it will not have a supervisory remit, but it will oversee those areas where there is a need for UK-wide policy—for example, on doping control, sports science, sports medicine and coaching. Home country councils will, however, be responsible for the delivery of those policies.
We should like the UKSC, among its early tasks, to see whether it is sensible to identify possible further areas where sports policies may have application across the UK as a whole; where there may currently be areas of unnecessary overlap and duplication; and whether it may be sensible to administer, in consultation with the home country councils, grant programmes for bodies or policies that have a UK or GB remit. The Government also wish to see the establishment of an effective British confederation of non-governmental sports interests. We shall invite the UKSC to consult the various interests and to bring forward proposals on the subject.
As to the national lottery, the home country councils will be responsible for distribution, but the UK body will offer expert advice on applications of UK importance under the directions that Ministers have issued, or will issue shortly, to their respective councils under section 26 of the National Lottery etc. Act 1993.
A small permanent staff will provide a secretariat and lead policy working parties of home country representatives. Drawing in that way on the expertise of the home country councils, and resourcing them accordingly, I envisage a staff for the UKSC of about 20. That contrasts with the proposed staff of the abandoned UK Sports Commission of 180.
585 I now turn to the new English body. The English Sports Council will have 15 members: an independent chairman, five ministerial appointees from the regions, three representatives from the membership of the Central Council of Physical Recreation to represent an Olympic, a non-Olympic and a professional sport, and six independent members.
The present Sports Council spreads itself too thinly and operates in a series of areas more appropriate to other agencies. The new English body will have a sharper focus, concentrating its resources on an increased programme of direct support to the governing bodies of sport, to help the grassroots, and on services in support of sporting excellence, including the national sports centres currently administered by the GB council.
There will be a substantial redeployment of resources away from bureaucracy, and away from programmes that do not reflect the new focus. In particular, the new body will withdraw from the promotion of mass participation, informal recreation and leisure pursuits and from health promotion. Those are laudable aims, but they are secondary to the pursuit of high standards of sporting achievement. In due course, those changes will allow us to give much greater help to our most important national sports. It will be for the new body to decide those sports, but I would expect it to concentrate, although not exclusively, on about two or three dozen.
In return for greater financial support, governing bodies will be required to prepare clear plans with specific targets for the development of their sports, from grassroots to the highest competitive levels. Those plans must include programmes for strong and effective links with schools and youth organisations, to make the most of the talent of young people. That will reinforce the Government's wider initiative to re-establish sport in schools, and lay the foundations for future sporting success. We shall also seek to ensure that the bodies make strenuous efforts to involve private finance in their funding plans.
Reform is also needed in English regional organisation. We want to see continuing working relationships at regional level between the Sports Council, local authorities and other agencies. But the present structural relationship between the Sports Council's regional offices and the regional councils for sport and recreation—RCSRs—gives rise to confusion over roles and responsibilities, and to concern on grounds of financial accountability, bureaucracy and duplication.
The regional offices of the Sports Council should be more clearly identified with the implementation of national sports policy. It is also very important that there is a clear distinction between them and other regional organisations currently in membership of the RCSRs which may be applicants for national lottery funding. The present formal linkage with the RCSRs will, therefore, cease and Ministers will no longer make appointments to them. To secure the necessary regional dimension to the formulation and implementation of the policies of the English Sports Council, Ministers will appoint independent nominees in each region, as previously they appointed the RCSR nominees. Five of those ministerial nominees will be appointed in rotation to serve on the English Sports Council, thus strengthening the two-way flow of advice and understanding between the Sports Council nationally 586 and in the regions. I am sure that local authorities will still wish to develop wider regional leisure strategies with other regional interests, and will, therefore, want to set up such future machinery to this end as they judge appropriate.
I shall appoint consultants to examine the entire range of the current Sports Council's functions in the light of the broad policy framework that I have set out today, and to make detailed recommendations for the structure and staffing of the new bodies. In reviewing functions, I shall ask consultants to identify those that should be discontinued and those that are suitable for market-testing or contracting-out. We will take a decision on the precise timing of implementation in the light of those recommendations, but I should expect that to take place during the next financial year. The costs of new arrangements will be met within present planned provision.
The Secretary of State has today written to the chairman of the Sports Council inviting views on the proposals by 30 September. A copy of his letter has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. I have also written to the British Olympic Association, the British Sports Forum, the Central Council of Physical Recreation and the local authority associations seeking their views.
§ Mr. Tom Pendry (Stalybridge and Hyde)The Opposition breathe a sigh of relief that, at long last, a statement on the future of the Sports Council of Great Britain is being made. The sporting world has waited an almighty long time for it to be born; its gestation period beats that of an African elephant, which is a mere 22 months. The sporting world has waited three years for the delivery. Nevertheless, the Opposition welcome what the Minister has stated today.
We do not appreciate, as the House does not appreciate, that, once more, a statement on sport has been made on a Friday, interrupting an important debate, when many hon. Members from both sides of the House who care about sporting issues are on their way to, or in, their constituencies, oblivious of the fact that a statement is being made. I at once absolve the Minister of marginalising sport by both making the statement so late and making it on a Friday. It is more likely that his ministerial colleagues in the Treasury and the Cabinet Office are more culpable than he.
The Opposition start from the basic premise, and we are joined, I am sure, by the sporting world, that the time has come for a new sports structure. The present structure is ill-defined and in many ways confusing. Having said that, and before I refer to specific proposals, I think it right to compliment Sir Peter Yarranton and his staff at the Sports Council, who have undergone a difficult period and laboured in trying circumstances in the past three years. Morale must have been difficult to sustain.
The Opposition welcome the UK Sports Council. We have argued for one for many a long year. We may argue about its precise size, but we are certainly disappointed that the Minister chose to disregard the advice of the noble Lord Howell and myself that the Minister himself should chair the new council and give the necessary direction to that new body, not as a hands-on Minister but as a directional Minister who could ensure that the new council fulfilled the objectives set by him and by the House. What kind of chairman, in his absence, is the Minister after? We hope that he intends to appoint someone of international reputation. Will he be a professional? Will he be paid?
587 We are pleased that the composition of the English Sports Council will recognise the CCPR, Olympic and non-Olympic sports and, for the first time, professional sports. Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on that matter. Perhaps he will also elaborate on his point about the Sports Council spreading itself too thinly. We are pleased that the regions' role will be strengthened in his proposals.
In view of the poor track record of the Government on their appointments to non-governmental bodies, will the Minister assure us today that his appointees will be appointed on their merit and not on their political affiliation?
Will the hon. Gentleman elaborate on the role in the United Kingdom Sports Council of the doping control unit, the National Coaching Foundation and sports science expertise, which come under the current Sports Council? We should like to know how the Minister intends to avoid duplication in each of those matters, with home country sports councils running separate services.
Will the Minister state where the central policy unit will be housed? We believe that it is an important unit. Is the Minister satisfied that the good work of the current Sports Council in preparing for the distribution of the lottery funds will not be disrupted by his statement today and that an effective mechanism for the distribution of funds to sport will be in place by the end of the year? How many redundancies does the Minister envisage will result from his proposals? Will they be voluntary?
Does the Minister accept that his statement will be a great disappointment to those engaged in children's play? They were looking to him in his statement today to reinstate the importance of children's play and to reverse the downgrading of it by his predecessor some time ago.
Finally, I hope that the Minister will extend his consultation period beyond 30 September. After all, we have waited three years for a definitive statement and we are already in the summer holiday period. That makes it difficult for the sporting world in a mere 83 days to have a meaningful dialogue with the Minister in that period.
Finally, finally, Opposition Members welcome much of what was contained in the Minister's statement, but regret the missed opportunities that I have mentioned. I hope that, on reflection, the Minister will adjust his sights accordingly.
§ Mr. SproatFirst, I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for the general welcome that he gave to so much of what we propose in this fairly radical restructuring of the Sports Council. As he said, it really was needed. I am grateful for the all-party support that he has given. Of course, I share the hon. Gentleman's views about making the statement on a Friday. The fact of the matter is that, as I am sure all hon. Members will understand, at the end of the summer term, when so many statements have to be made, I had the choice of making an oral statement on a Friday or not at all. So I thought it better to have a Friday statement than none at all.
The hon. Gentleman said that a long time had been taken for a statement to be made. It is almost exactly a year since Friday 9 July last year, when I announced the abandonment of the old UK Sports Commission. It has taken a year because I have used the intervening time to go round every sports region to speak to every member of every sports region, as well as to meet in my office the 588 British Olympic Association, the CCPR and so on. It has been a thorough review. I hope that we have used the time well.
I should like to say how very much I agree with the kind words spoken by the hon. Gentleman about Sir Peter Yarranton as chairman of the Great Britain Sports Council. He and his colleagues have done a marvellous job. I congratulate them on what they have achieved.
The hon. Gentleman asked what kind of chairman of the new UK and English Sports Councils we shall be looking for. We will look with an open mind at everyone whose name is put forward. As for the pay, which the hon. Gentleman properly raised, it is our intention to pay the chairman, as Sir Peter and his deputy are paid. We are certainly looking for someone who has a high-quality name, who will be recognised nationally and will help to achieve what I want to see. I want this country to be influential again in international sport.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned professional sport. He welcomed my putting professional sportsmen on both bodies. I believe that the time has come to do so. It is ludicrous, when professional sport is so dominant in Britain, that we do not have people on the boards who can specifically speak for professional sport. We have had one or two individuals before such as Trevor Booking, the chairman of the current eastern RCSR, but we want them on the bodies specifically to represent professional sport and the attitudes of those involved in it. That is an innovation which will be widely welcomed.
I believe that the Sports Council has spread itself too thinly in the past, partly because Parliament has laid too many different jobs on it. When one considers that the current spending of the Sports Council is about £50 million a year and that local government in England alone spends £1.25 billion, one can see that the Sports Council money is small by comparison. Therefore, it has to be concentrated.
The ministerial nominees will certainly not be appointed for political reasons. I have not the slightest idea how any of them votes. I have never asked them and I do not care. I want people who will drive forward the cause of sport in this country. The new UK Sports Council will examine sports medicine, sports science and coaching, because it is clearly important that they are co-ordinated across the United Kingdom and that there is no duplication. That will be a prime job of the new UK body.
The lottery will not be disrupted. The lottery part of the new GB Sports Council is already up and running. It will not be interrupted. It will continue into the English body.
The number of redundancies will not be known until the consultants have a look at the particular parts of the current GB Sports Council and what will be transferred to the new English Sports Council. I hope that it will be possible to make the redundancies voluntary.
Children's play is but one element of the work of the current Sports Council. We will consider whether its continuing role in the Sports Council fits in with the more sharply focused view that I want the Sports Council to take. Certainly many people say that the role of children's play is not suitable for the Sports Council, but we will look at it carefully in the light of what I have announced today.
The hon. Gentleman asked me to extend the consultation period. It will go up to 30 September for formal consultation, but, thereafter, we shall have further consultation on the points that are made by various bodies with members of the Sports Council and others.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. After those initial exchanges, I now look for brisk questions and for brisk answers from the Minister.
§ Mr. Richard Tracey (Surbiton)My hon. Friend's statement is a welcome clarification of the situation. He will be aware of the uncertainty felt, not only by staff of the Sports Council but by many outside—something which I am sure he has heard plenty about from Sir Peter Yarranton, to whom I also pay tribute. I am pleased by the leaner and fitter format that he has proposed, which is very welcome. I especially welcome what he said about the regional councils and regional sport—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. When we have a statement, the whole idea is that Members can question the Minister.
§ Mr. TraceyOn the national lottery, my hon. Friend said that the present work will continue. Can he guarantee to the House that it will not lack staff to deal with the many applications that will undoubtedly be made for national lottery funds? I hope that the Sports Council will be able to set an example to the various other organisations distributing national lottery funds, which will be considerable.
§ Mr. SproatI thank my hon. Friend for his welcome. Yes, the lottery division of the present Great Britain Sports Council will proceed fairly seamlessly into the English Sports Council. There will be no difficulty.
§ Ms Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)I welcome very much the setting up of the streamlined United Kingdom Sports Council. Can the Minister clarify whether there will be any more resources for school sports associations, which are keen to get sport going among our young people? Why does he not think that the Minister should chair the new forum? That is the only way in which we will get it to be really accountable to this Parliament.
§ Mr. SproatI thank the hon. Lady for her kind welcome, which I very much appreciate. Her first question is very important. I said that we would be asking governing bodies to make absolutely clear in their business plans what proposals they have for links between schools, other youth groups and sports clubs outside schools, but in the community. We may be saying rather more about that if and when we make an announcement about sport in schools.
On the hon. Lady's very kind suggestion that I should be chairman, which the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) also mentioned, without undue modesty I can say that the fewer politicians and ministerial nominees, the better. I look to the new chairman to provide firm and strong leadership for British sport.
§ Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North)I welcome my hon. Friend's statement. Is he aware that I am the president and chairman of two school sporting bodies, and that I took five coaching certificates and coached in five sports in addition to academic teaching for 23 years? I have a great interest in the field—all amateur, unpaid.
Will more top sportsmen come from schools and clubs as a result of my hon. Friend's excellent work—the Brian Laras and Sebastian Coes of this world—and will it give a special opportunity for all children to enjoy and take part in sport? Will he support the payment of teachers who 590 coach, as well as putting money into clubs to coach children, as the Select Committee on Education, Science and the Arts recommended two or three years ago?
§ Mr. SproatMy hon. Friend's qualifications are extremely impressive—I did not know the depth of the detail—and I will undertake to add him to the list of people I consult on the details of this statement.
As for more sportsmen coming through schools, that is my aim and I believe that it will be helped by the statement. I will consider my hon. Friend's third question.
§ Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East)I do not have a CV and I do not want to interfere in the love relationship that the Opposition Front Bench and the Department of Heritage have entered into this week. How will the six independent members of the Sports Council be appointed and whom will they be independent from?
§ Mr. SproatThey will be appointed by the Government and be independent from the Government. They will also be independent of vested interests in sport. For example, the British Olympic Association will, quite rightly, have a member, and amateur non-Olympic sport will have another. By independent members, I mean people who are independent from those particular sections of the sporting community.
§ Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge)My hon. Friend referred to ministerial appointees. Does he plan to use their talent in particular ways and perhaps to use it more than it has been used in the past?
§ Mr. SproatThat is a very interesting question. Yes, is the short answer. When I got this job, I was struck by the fact that I did not know what the ministerial nominees were supposed to be telling me, or what I was supposed to be telling them. When I went round the regions I was extremely impressed by their talents. As a minimum, first, I want to get five of them on to the English Sports Council, so that we have proper regional influence in that council at a national level and a two-way flow of information and experience. Secondly, I want to meet all the nominees in each region and also to meet all of them together at least once a year, so that we can have a two-way flow of advice.
§ Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley)Does the Minister see, as a result of the changes, more money going to the regions for the provision of sporting facilities and involvement in sport? Does he see a role for the Sports Council in providing a replacement for Wembley stadium, which would provide this capital and the country with a national stadium worthy of the 21st century?
§ Mr. SproatOn the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I certainly see more money going to grassroots sport in the regions. One of the troubles with the present Sports Council—terrific as it has been in so many ways—is that too much money has been spent on publications, pamphlets, conferences and seminars and too little has been going directly to sport. I want to change that and focus the money going to sport in the regions.
I have received representations about Wembley stadium. I will consider them and make an announcement on another occasion.
§ Mr. Michael Stephen (Shoreham)Can my hon. Friend explain whether national lottery funds will be available, through the new United Kingdom Sports Council, for both the revenue side and the capital side of sports projects?
§ Mr. SproatThe money will be distributed not by the UK Sports Council, but by the English, Northern Ireland, Welsh and Scottish councils, but the UK Sports Council will obviously give expert advice on matters that have a United Kingdom-wide application.
On my hon. Friend's important point about capital and revenue, there will be an opportunity for revenue funding to come from lottery funds, as long as it is part of a capital project. There cannot be such funding from the lottery where no capital sum has originally gone into a project.
§ Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston)Last week, while you were enjoying the air at Wimbledon, Madam Speaker, I had to put up with the recorded version of that great event because I was at an athletics meeting in my constituency, where a very important question was raised which is appropriate to this statement. In my region, one of the concerns that have been expressed is that the previous body failed properly to evaluate the strategic needs within the regions and to identify areas where gaps in provision existed. Will the Minister confirm that part of the work of the new regional body will be to undertake that strategic review and fill in those gaps, wherever possible?
§ Mr. SproatYes. The hon. Member makes a very good point. Almost the main reason why I want ministerial nominees to continue, but to be attached to the sports council for the region, is exactly that—so that there is a direct flow of information up to the national body from the grassroots about what is needed there and back again, to ensure that national policy is practised in the regions. That is a very good point and I hope that I have met it by what I have proposed.
§ Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam)May I congratulate my hon. Friend on his moves to re-establish sport in schools? It is certainly desirable that our children should be fitter, healthier and more competitive. Where will the headquarters of the new sports councils be located and where will the English Sports Council be located? Will he consider moving it out of London?
§ Mr. SproatI thank my hon. Friend for her comments on the importance of competitive team games in schools. The headquarters of both the United Kingdom and English councils will be in London—but in different buildings, so there will not be too cosy a relationship. My hon. Friend's interesting suggestion that the English Sports Council's headquarters might be moved out of London in future is certainly possible. I will look to the council to come forward with proposals, if it so wishes—provided that they are cost effective.
§ Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough)To whom or to what will the real estate and other properties of the present Sports Council be transferred?
§ Mr. SproatAll the national centres in England will, as my hon. Friend would expect, go to the English Sports Council. The centre in Wales, at Plas y Brenin, will also go to the English Sports Council because of a complicated legal ownership arrangement. It will be up to the English 592 Sports Council to say in future that it does not want to run national centres but to privatise or sell them. It is up to the council to make proposals in due course.
§ Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)I welcome my hon. Friend's announcement that he will consider private finance in relation to the new councils' funding. How does he expect to ratchet in private finance to ensure the best value for every pound spent of public money?
§ Mr. SproatAs my hon. Friend knows and emphasises by implication, we are extremely keen to attract private finance on every possible occasion. A good example is the current sponsorship scheme whereby the Government match pound for pound up to £3.5 million, grossing £7 million, to be pumped into sport. That is a paradigm of what we would like to see in the new body.
§ Mr. Gary Streeter (Plymouth, Sutton)I congratulate my hon. Friend on his statement and on the proposal to reduce the number of bureaucrats in the new UK body from 180 to 20. Can he assure me that the money saved in that way will be pumped back into grassroots sports?
§ Mr. SproatYes, I certainly can. My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point which goes to the heart of our attempts to concentrate, target and cut out peripheral activities in leisure and recreation—important as they are—and concentrate on sport. We will cut the money out of bureaucracy and put it straight into sport itself.
§ Madam SpeakerThank you all for your co-operation.