HC Deb 26 January 1994 vol 236 cc269-72
1. Mr. Foulkes

To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what delegations he or his Ministers received on the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill led by hon. Members.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang)

Since publication of the White Paper "Shaping the Future —The New Councils" in July 1993, my hon. Friend the Minister for Industry and Local Government has met 12 delegations led by hon. Members to discuss the Government's local government reform proposals. I will make arrangements for details of these meetings to be included in the Official Report.

Following is the information:

1 October 1993:

1 November 1993:

5 November 1993:

8 November 1993:

12 November 1993:

26 November 1993:

30 November 1993:

1 December 1993:

20 December 1993:

18 January 1994:

19 January 1994:

19 January 1994:

Ministers also met a number of hon. Members and delegations prior to publication of the White Paper to discuss local government reform issues.

Mr. Foulkes

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that information. As he will know, one of the delegations —the delegation from Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, which I led—was strongly opposed to the setting up of a south Ayrshire authority. Has he read the reports that state that the Ayr Tories have a blueprint to opt out and flog all the services if they win control of that authority? They have already started by making plans for a Spanish cleansing company to take over a contract.

Is the Secretary of State aware that we do not want the loony right ideas of Westminster and Wandsworth to be imported into Scotland?

Mr. Lang

I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would want local authorities to provide services, or ensure their provision, in the most effective way possible, thereby raising the quality of service and reducing the cost to residents. I know, however, that he and his hon. Friends are in some difficulty in this regard. While the hon. Gentleman is a strong advocate of the establishment of a single all-Ayshire authority, his hon. Friends the Members for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) and for Cunninghame, South (Mr. Donohoe) favour a three-authority Ayrshire. The Government have proposed a two-authority Ayrshire. The one thing that unites Labour Members is the fact that they all seem to oppose the continued survival of Strathclyde.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my right hon. Friend agree that those who oppose the establishment of single-tier authorities near to the people are those who represent councillors from the large regions who will find themselves out of jobs—or, alternatively, trade unions acting in respect of officials who will find themselves out of jobs? The Government's proposals have been welcomed; they are certainly most welcome on Tayside.

Mr. Lang

I welcome my hon. Friend back to the House. I am grateful for his support for single-tier, all-purpose authorities.

It is significant that every party in the House supported the principle of single-tier authorities at the last general election. Some Opposition Members may have forgotten the commitments that they made at that time.

Mr. Wallace

Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has received representations on the Government's proposals for water and sewerage, contained in the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill, as well as representations on local government boundary questions? The president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has referred the Prime Minister to the findings of the System 3 opinion poll, which showed overwhelming opposition to the Government's proposals. In his reply, the Prime Minister said that the proper approach was for Scottish opinion to be given expression through Members of Parliament. How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to determine Scottish opinion in a way that will satisfy him?

Mr. Lang

For one thing, I hope that we can get the Bill into Committee so that we can start looking at it. Opposition Members seem remarkably reluctant to allow the Committee to get under way. They deny all the established conventions and procedures of the Committee of Selection—[HoN. MEMBERS: "No."] They shout "No" now. I very much hope that that means that we can get the Bill into Committee. We can then pursue the testing of opinion about these matters.

Mr. Kynoch

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the controls on employment practice included in the Bill will be widely welcomed by many Conservative Members who have led delegations to him, particularly in the light of further revelations in the newspapers over the weekend about the employment practices of Monklands district council? Is my right hon. Friend fully confident that the body that he can set up to examine excessive salary increases during the reorganisation will indeed be effective, and will produce meaningful results?

Mr. Lang

My hon. Friend identifies an important matter. There was certainly strong feeling during the last reform of local government that there were abuses over the re-employment, sometimes at vastly enhanced salaries, of some local authority officials. The provisions in the Bill prevent that from happening again.

Mr. Welsh

Has the Secretary of State received a delegation of English Tory Members desperate to join the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill Committee? What qualification do English Tory Members have for membership of the Committee since they did not attend the Second Reading debate or speak in it? They have no electoral mandate whatever in Scotland and it is a purely Scottish Bill. Does the Secretary of State need English Members to prop up local government in Scotland?

Mr. Lang

It is significant that I have not yet received the delegation of English Conservative Members opposed to the Government's proposals that was promised by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson). Like Scottish Members, English Members are part of the United Kingdom Parliament. It is here, in the United Kingdom Parliament, that we are proposing to legislate to reform Scottish local government.

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in referring to Monklands district council, a Sunday newspaper carried the headline "Corruption in John Smith's Backyard"? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best thing that could happen to Coatbridge and Airdrie is the abolition of that disreputable council which the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) and the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke), who is in his place, have signally failed to condemn?

Mr. Lang

With regard to the allegations, my hon. Friend may say that; I could not possibly comment. As for Monklands district council, I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government's proposals provide for the abolition of Monklands district.

Mr. George Robertson

Why are the Government so scared of having a majority of one in the Standing Committee on the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill? That is the precise mathematical formulation that their strength in the House would give them. Is it the fact that, having decided to gerrymander the local government map in Scotland, they want to gerrymander the majority in the Committee to force it through? Is it not the truth that the Government have now lost all enthusiasm for this costly, unnecessary, unwanted gerrymandering exercise and that the Secretary of State wants an artificial majority of two in the Committee so that he can abandon responsibility for what he has started?

Mr. Lang

As the hon. Gentleman ought to know, but perhaps does not, the selection of the Committee is a matter for the Committee of Selection. The Labour party has been gerrymandering that Committee and preventing it from starting work on the Bill. The hon. Gentleman's credibility on these matters is somewhat shattered. On 17 January, for example, he quoted with approbation that expert and authoritative journalist Mr. Brian Meek. He might like to know that the journalist whom he regarded as expert and authoritative said on Monday: The Labour party's opposition to single-tier councils is duplicitous, dishonest and disgraceful. They are desperately seeking to protect jobs for the comrades and are quite corruptly, in my opinion, spending public money to that end". Those are the views of a journalist of whom the hon. Gentleman said: His words and views must be of some consequence in Scotland".

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