East Timor (Hansard, 14 December 1994)

§ 3. Mr. Corbyn
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of Indonesia concerning their occupation of East Timor.

§ The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Douglas Hurd)
We have not recognised Indonesia's annexation of East Timor. We continue to encourage Indonesia and Portugal to work together under the auspices of the United Nations Secretary-General to find a solution to this problem. We welcome recent talks between East Timorese representatives and the Foreign Ministers of Portugal and Indonesia, and among East Timorese representatives themselves.

§ Mr. Corbyn
Does the Foreign Secretary think that Britain's representations concerning East Timor would have just a tinge of credibility if we were not at the same time supplying to the Indonesian regime arms and aircraft, 910 which, supposedly, are for training but have been used to bomb East Timorese people and their positions, and if we did not maintain normal trade, diplomatic and aid relationships with the Indonesian Government, whose army has murdered 200,000 East Timorese people over the past 15 years and continues a genocide against those people? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that Britain's position is just one of rank hypocrisy?

§ Mr. Hurd
Certainly not. We do maintain normal, indeed friendly, relations with Indonesia. Because we do that, we are able to make known to the Indonesians our views, whether on East Timor or human rights generally, and we do so. I do so myself. The hon. Gentleman cannot, and has not, produced evidence to support allegations that Hawks, already supplied to Indonesia under the contract authorised by the previous Labour Government, have been used for oppressive purposes in East Timor. We think not.

§ Mr. Nicholls
In case the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn), who spoke a moment ago, cares to disown the previous Labour Government, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he read in the New Statesman of November 1993 that the then Labour party spokesman on defence matters positively approved the sale of Hawk aircraft? Does he agree that it does not take forward the cause of human rights in Indonesia, a cause which even the Indonesian Government admit needs improving, for the Opposition, instead of acknowledging the improvements that have taken place—even dissidents in Indonesia admit that they have—to make ill-informed criticism, when, if they were asked to find Indonesia on a map, let alone East Timor, they would know nothing apart from the fact that it is somewhere east of Islington?

§ Mr. Hurd
I sympathise with what my hon. Friend says and am well aware of the New Statesman article to which he refers. I had it almost by heart on a previous occasion.
As regards human rights, there has been some improvement in Indonesia over the past two decades, but not yet enough, and we take all the steps that we can to point out to it where we think the shortcomings still are and to suggest ways in which they can be remedied. For example, we encouraged the Indonesian Government to invite a delegation of Amnesty International to see the situation on the ground. I hope that that will happen.

§ Mr. Worthington
Does the Foreign Secretary not think that the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) should have declared his visit to Indonesia? He has been a guest of the Indonesian Government and that may have affected his approach to the question.

§ Mr. Hurd
I do not think that there is any secret about my hon. Friend's knowledge of Indonesia and his friendship with that country. I do not think that there is any harm in that at all.

§ Mr. Bill Walker
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Hawk training aircraft is the finest aircraft of its type anywhere in the world and that is why it sells to Indonesia and other countries? This is just humbug from the Labour party in much the same way as there was humbug over Argentina when it sold warships to that country.

§ Mr. Hurd
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I can help the Opposition Front Bench out of its difficulty by providing some ammunition against its Back Benchers.
911 The Hawks in Indonesia are two-seater trainers and we have no evidence that they have been reconfigured to carry live bombs since they were supplied.