Security (Hansard, 28 April 1994)

§ 8. Mr. Hunter
To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
I regret to say that this year 19 deaths have been caused by terrorist action. Unrelenting and highly effective action by the security forces continues. In consequence, up to 27 April 143 people have been charged with terrorist-related offences, including 31 with murder or attempted murder.

§ Mr. Hunter
Bearing in mind that terrorism is the greatest abuse of civil liberty, will my right hon. and learned Friend give serious attention to the enhanced security proposals from the Royal Ulster Constabulary and other sources, including the admissibility of hearsay and electronically gathered evidence, redefining the right to silence, providing greater witness protection and encouraging supergrass evidence?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
My hon. Friend will know that the right to silence was adjusted several years ago in Northern Ireland along the lines that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary proposes to adopt in England now. Criminal law must respond effectively to the terrorist challenge and must do so in a balanced way. We always keep the matter under review and heed the views of the Chief Constable. But we also heed the view of, among others, the judiciary, and its likely approach in practice to specific innovations that may be suggested.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
I wonder what the great British public would say if they were asked their views on the deployment of young men on the streets of Belfast and other trouble spots in Northern Ireland. Might they not say, "Let's get them out"?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
I have a good deal of knowledge of that sort of question. My strong belief is that the people of this country recognise that there is a duty to protect their fellow countrymen against the threat—carried out, in all too many cases, by bombing and shooting—that they could be driven out of their country. That is very well understood. I do not believe that there is a serious body of opinion which says, "Let them suffer".

§ Sir James Kilfedder
I join in the condemnation of the sectarian slaughter that has brought grief to so many Protestant and Catholic families in Northern Ireland. Does the Secretary of State not agree that the terrorists aim further to divide the community of Northern Ireland when the emphasis should be placed on reconciliation and healing? Can he give an assurance that further steps will be taken to deal with terrorism, particularly in view of the revelations that the IRA has had talks with the intelligence services of Iran with the purpose of obtaining money and ammunition?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
The Government are aware that there have been contacts between Iran and the IRA and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, summoned Iran's chargé 372 d'affaires today to express the Government's condemnation of that. I share the condemnation by the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) of the murders that he mentioned. We shall always keep under review the measures that can be taken in law to help the security forces in their unrelenting and impartial campaign to prevent murders and similar actions from being committed, and to bring those responsible to justice.

§ Mr. Benn
Has the Secretary of State seen the report by Brian Lenihan, the Chairman of the Dail Foreign Affairs Committee in Dublin and a former Irish Foreign Minister, that the time has now come to talk directly with Sinn Fein? Is it not a fact that in Bosnia ceasefire talks go on all the time in the hope of ending the violence, that historically all violence has been ended by discussions opening up a new perspective, and that that has been the considered opinion of the overwhelming majority of British people over 20 years when that question has been put to them in opinion polls?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
I think that the essential feature in this question is that this country is a democracy. If one talks with—by which the right hon. Gentleman necessarily means negotiate with—those who, in a democracy, are using violence for political purposes, one fatally undermines those who accept the constitutional restraints of democratic politics.
That is not just my view. It is the view of the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic and I believe it to be the view of the vast majority of people in this country. They know that defending democracy is always expensive and they know that the price is always worth paying.

§ Mr. Robathan
My right hon. and learned Friend may be interested to know that as a young man I was deployed on the streets of Belfast and that neither I nor any of my colleagues ever suggested that we should be withdrawn. However, we now ask—some nine years after the Anglo-Irish Agreement—what progress is being made with the Irish Republic in catching the terrorists south of the border who come north of the border to murder citizens of the United Kingdom and then return to their havens in the south?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
When my hon. Friend, who has personal experience of these problems, raises that question I think that I should say rather emphatically that the Government meant it when they said many times in the past that the level of co-operation between the two police forces has never been higher than it is at the moment. That is the view expressed recently by Sir Hugh Annesley, the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and I have personal knowledge of the very close relationship between him and the Commissioner. There have been many recent successes by the Gardai south of the border in finding arms and munitions and disrupting attacks, although there is no doubt that more could be done with more resources. That can always be said in all circumstances, but I pay tribute to what is being done.

§ Mr. McNamara
Is the Secretary of State aware of the Opposition's support for the statements by the Minister of State to the Iranian chargé d'affaires this morning? That is a quite deplorable situation and he has our complete support in what he is doing. We also express our sympathy in relation to those who have been murdered in the recent spate of sectarian killings, whether in Garvagh or in 373 Belfast. Are the Minister and the Chief Constable satisfied that they have sufficient officers and troops at their disposal to be able to defend the sensitive areas in Belfast? Furthermore, can the Minister give an undertaking to the House that the type of opportunities that were given to the terrorists last night in their attacks across the peace line will be carefully checked? What sort of warnings did the RUC give to the local population and were they sufficiently protected?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said about the Iranian involvement and, of course, I am also grateful for the sympathy that he has expressed. The latest advice that I have received from the Chief Constable, who is my principal adviser on security matters, is that he is satisfied with the force levels currently at his disposal. As for the Springvale episode last night, that is being investigated by the RUC.

§ Mr. Hume
Will the Secretary of State take clear steps totally to dispel the prejudice of people such as his own Back Bencher the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) in relation to what is happening in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? Will he confirm that over the last 25 years 99.9 per cent. of all of those who have been arrested and convicted of acts of violence in Northern Ireland were from Northern Ireland? Will he also confirm that the security costs per head of population are much higher in the Republic of Ireland than in Northern Ireland? Will he do all that he can to remove the desperate prejudice among some of his Back Benchers, which is a serious part of our problem?

§ Sir Patrick Mayhew
I think that the hon. Gentleman, for once, does less than justice to the good faith and serious concern of Conservative Members and to their interest in finding a solution to a desperately difficult problem. That problem imposes heavy burdens, both financial and—more importantly—in terms of the lives of the people of this country, including the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan). I do not therefore believe that this matter is helpfully attended to by making the sort of assertions that the hon. Gentleman has made. I understand very well my hon. Friend's concern; it is shared by all Conservative Members.