§ 11. Mr. DalyellTo ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his latest estimate of the transitional costs of local government reform.
§ Mr. LangMy latest estimate of the transitional costs of local government reform is that they will be considerably outweighed by savings as the new councils become established.
§ Mr. DalyellI return to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Dunnachie). What categories of individuals affected by the acquired rights directive do the Government have in mind when they say that they have to go to court?
§ Mr. LangThe hon. Gentleman should look at the reply already given by my hon. Friend the Minister. The hon. Gentleman's question is about the estimated transitional costs of local government reform. I have already said that they will be far outweighed by savings. For example, Angus anticipates savings of £8.5 million over 15 years, while the Borders region expects £22 million over the same period.
§ Mr. Norman HoggIn reply to an earlier question from my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross), the Under-Secretary of State said that he could not recall the detail of his speech to the CIPFA conference. Indeed, it was an unmemorable speech. However, the hon. Gentleman said that in the reorganisation of local government, local authority staff should—I think this was the phrase—go for management buy-outs if their jobs were under threat. What sort of advice is that for local government officials who have served local government well? In addition, would not that add to the costs of the reorganisation, which in any event are likely to get out of hand?
§ Mr. LangWhen the hon. Gentleman checks the official record of my hon. Friend's speech, he will realise that he did not represent his words accurately.
On the hon. Gentleman's question about the future of local authority staff, my hon. Friend made it quite clear that the vast majority will transfer to new local authorities. The Opposition's estimates of the costs of local government reform are specifically and largely related to implied redundancies, which are likely to be relatively limited. However, to the extent that they do lead to additional costs, those will be more than outweighed—and in the longer term substantially outweighed—by subsequent savings.
§ Mr. McLeishWhy are the Government deliberately flouting European legislation by refusing to transfer all local authority employees to the new unitary councils? If 238 every one of the 300,000 local government work force was transferred, along with TUPE and the acquired rights directives, there would be no financial savings from the reorganisation. Would not that further wreck the Government's crumbling credibility on this disastrous, divisive and highly dangerous piece of legislation? Or is it just another piece of irresponsible behaviour by the Government, who are willing to put the workers, their families and their livelihoods into the political arena? How can the Secretary of State genuinely want to save 30,000 jobs if he is putting them on the scrapheap of Scotland, where there are already 230,000 people looking for work?
§ Mr. LangThe hon. Gentleman is clearly confused and muddled about the whole exercise. Redundancies probably will result from local government reform. Indeed, I think it desirable that local authorities should be run more efficiently. We should halve the number of local authorities. To the extent that there are redundancies, those will lead to more substantial savings. The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways.