HC Deb 14 April 1994 vol 241 cc431-4

4.6 pm

Mr. Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne, East)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. During Prime Minister's Question Time, the Prime Minister referred to my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) in a way which you felt was unparliamentary. At your request, the right hon. Gentleman rephrased his earlier point. However, I think that the record will show that the Prime Minister did not withdraw his unparliamentary remark and did not apologise for it. I respectfully ask you, Madam Speaker, to check the record and to ask the Prime Minister formally to withdraw his remark and to apologise for it on the Floor of the House.

Mr. David Shaw (Dover)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker

Order. Is it related to the previous point of order?

Mr. Shaw

Yes.

Madam Speaker

In that case, I will hear it.

Mr. Shaw

Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. On the issue of lies about the national health service, of which we are getting an increasing—

Madam Speaker

Order. The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown) raised a quite correct point of order. If the point of order from the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw) relates to that, I will hear it. However, we are not concerned with lies about the NHS. We are concerned about the point of order, and the hon. Gentleman's point of order must relate to that.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Madam Speaker

Order. I am hearing an hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Shaw

My concern relates to the ability of an hon. Member—whether he is the Prime Minister or a Back Bencher—to say, where a clear lie has been stated in the House, that a lie has been stated without in any way wishing to be derogatory about the person who may have made the statement.

Madam Speaker

Order. If the hon. Member looks carefully, he may be able, under certain circumstances, to put down a substantive motion.

Several hon. Members

Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker

Order. There can be no further points of order on this. I have captured the spirit of the House on this matter from the point of order of the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East.

Of course, I heard clearly the Prime Minister's remarks which, I have to say, I felt were unparliamentary. However, it is for me to decide whether the rephrasing that he offered was acceptable and I deemed that it was acceptable.

In any event, I should like to remind the entire House—this relates to Back Benchers as well as Front Benchers—of the very wise words of "Erskine May": Good temper and moderation are the characteristics of parliamentary language.

All Members—both Front Bench and Back Bench, however long they have been here and whether or not they are new Members who came here at the last election—should remember those fine words. Let us conduct ourselves in that spirit in future.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker

It does not relate to the previous point of order, does it? That has been dealt with.

Mr. Winnick

I want to ask you a question, on a point of order. I have heard you, like your predecessors, ask hon. Members who used expressions that are not allowed in this Chamber to withdraw them immediately. You have insisted on that. Does not the same apply to the Prime Minister?

Madam Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is a good parliamentarian. I dealt with the point of order raised by the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman and have firmly made my views known in the House on a number of occasions. I shall take no further points of order on the matter, which has been dealt with. I will, of course, listen to any other points of order.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)

On an entirely different point of order, Madam Speaker. During Prime Minister's Question Time, is it in order for a Prime Minister to cast a slur on a member of another place? I refer to the right hon. Gentleman's reference to Labour Prime Ministers' use of No. 10 Downing street for fund-raising purposes.

Ought that to be drawn to the attention of Lord Callaghan, because there might be great resentment at the insinuation that the noble Lord acted improperly?

Mr. Shaw

He did not say that.

Madam Speaker

I heard very clearly what was said at Prime Minister's Question Time. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the report in Hansard where he will see very clearly what happened.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

In view of the new flexibility in the rules, can we have a retrospective ruling on the eight separate occasions on which I ran into difficulties with the Speaker—only once with you, Madam Speaker—and wipe the slate clean?

Madam Speaker

I try to wipe the slate clean on each occasion. That is why the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and I are such good friends today—[Laughter]—so far, but there is some time to go before the end of the day.