EXTENSION OF SEXUAL OFFENCES ACT 1967 TO THE ARMED FORCES AND MERCHANT NAVY (No. 2) (Hansard, 12 April 1994)

§ Mr. Maclennan
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris)
With this it will be convenient to discuss also the following: New clause 82—Homosexuality on merchant ships and in the armed forces: Northern Ireland— '—(1) In the Homosexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 1982, the following are revoked—

(a) in article 3(1) (homosexual acts in private), the words "and Article 5 (merchant seamen)"; and

(b) article 5 (homosexual acts on merchant ships).

(2) Article 3(4) of the Homosexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 1982 (homosexual acts in the armed forces) is revoked. (3) This section, and the associated entry relating to the 1982 Order in Schedule 11, shall come into force on the date this Act is passed.'. Amendment No. 35, in clause 131, page 103, line 19, at end insert—
'In Article 3 of the Homosexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 1982 (homosexual acts in private), for "21" in both places where it occurs there is substituted "18".'. Amendment No. 36, in clause 142, page 110, line 32, after '125,' insert '131,'.
Government amendment No. 184.
Amendment No. 122, in page 111, line 1, leave out 'Section 44 extends' and insert 'Sections 44 and (Homosexuality on merchant ships and in the armed forces: Northern Ireland) extend'. Amendment No. 123, in schedule 11, page 157, line 49, at end insert—

'S.I. 1982/1536 (NJ. 19). The Homosexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 1982 In Article 3, in paragraph (1), the words "and Article 5 (merchant seamen)", and paragraph (4). Article 5.'.

Government amendment No. 133.

§ Mr. Maclennan
The new clause provides the Government with an opportunity to fulfil the undertaking that they gave in 1992 to decriminalise homosexuality in the armed forces and Merchant Navy.

§ Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am finding it extremely difficult to hear 170 what the hon. Gentleman is saying because of the noise. I know that you would want the House to be orderly so that we can hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. So that the House is clear about what is happening, the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) has now moved new clause 70 and has the Floor.

§ Mr. Maclennan
I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
The Sexual Offences Act 1967 decriminalised private homosexual acts between consenting adults over the age of 21 in England and Wales, but did not extend to the armed forces or the Merchant Navy. Further Acts decriminalising homosexuality in Northern Ireland and Scotland repeated that omission.
The Select Committee on the Armed Forces recommended in 1992 that the criminal law be the same for members of the armed forces and Merchant Navy as it is for civilians. It did not, however, recommend lifting the ban on homosexuals serving in the military. In the debate to which I have referred, in June 1992, the then Minister of State said: the Select Committee on the Armed Forces did recommend that homosexual activity of a kind that is legal in civilian law should no longer constitute an offence under service law. That recommendation has been considered very carefully by the service personnel authorities, and they and Ministers have concluded that the Select Committee's recommendation should be accepted … It is now the Government's view, following the advice of the Select Committee, that such criminal proceedings should no longer be brought. My Department has therefore accepted that the special provisions of section 1(5) of the Sexual Offences Act"—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Michael
Further to the earlier point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is immensely difficult to hear the hon. Gentleman, as it was the last time you expressed concern on the issue.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Will those hon. Members beyond the Bar, who are not technically in the Chamber, carry on their conversations elsewhere?

§ Mr. Maclennan
The former Minister of State said: My Department has therefore accepted that the special provisions of section 1(5) of the Sexual Offences Act 1967 should not apply in future. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has been asked to implement the repeal of this part of the Act as soon as the legislative programme allows … I should like to make it clear that this is a sensible measure of decriminalisation, whose purpose is to tidy up the differences between military and civilian law. It is not intended to alter the present disciplinary climate of service life. New clause 70 has been tabled to enable the Government to fulfil that undertaking. It does not seek to prevent the Army from disciplining individuals for conduct that may be a threat to discipline or good order relating to homosexual activity. Criminal prosecutions for gross misconduct of an indecent kind will still be possible under other armed forces legislation, as in civilian life. I commend the new clause to the House.

§ The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Jeremy Hanley)
All four Ministers at the Ministry of Defence support new clauses 70 and 82. Their purpose is to align with civilian law the legality or otherwise of actions by members of the armed forces and the Merchant Navy. Under current law, those engaging in homosexual activity that is legal in civilian law could be prosecuted 171 under service law. Clearly, that would be unfair, and my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement informed the House in June 1992 that the Government had accepted the recommendation of the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill of 1991 that homosexual activity of a kind that is legal in civilian law should not be prosecuted under service law.
Since then, we have not been prosecuting in such circumstances. It remains our policy, however, that homosexual activity is not compatible with the special conditions under which service personnel live and work. Service personnel found to be homosexual or who engage in homosexual activity will continue to be discharged from the services. It would clearly be anomalous for the situation in the Merchant Navy to be different from that in the armed forces. There is general consensus in the shipping industry that section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 1967 should be repealed, and the decision to do so was announced by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris), on 16 December 1993.
The code of conduct for the Merchant Navy is being amended in consultation with the unions and employers. Now is an appropriate opportunity to enshrine in law our acceptance of the position and repeal the special provisions of section 1(5) of the Sexual Offences Act 1967. It is also appropriate to amend the relevant section in article 3(4) of the Homosexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 1982 in relation to the law in Northern Ireland. I commend the new clauses to the House.

§ Ms Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)
I wish to speak to amendment No. 35, standing in my name and those of a large number of other hon. Members. Although we cannot take a decision on it tonight, I hope that the House will support amendment No. 35, which will bring Northern Ireland legislation into line with the decision taken by the House a short time ago to reduce the age of consent for homosexuals to 18. At present, under the law in Northern Ireland, the age is still 21. In the Republic of Ireland the age of consent is 17. I am sure that the House would not want homosexual people in Northern Ireland to suffer inequality under the law.
The amendment is a simple measure of equality that would bring the age of consent in Northern Ireland to 18 as in the rest of the United Kingdom. It would give young people, and people generally in Northern Ireland, the same rights as people in the rest of the UK. Will the Minister give his view on the matter? I hope that he will accept the amendment. If not, I hope that the House will vote on it tomorrow.

§ Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)
Will the hon. Lady give way?

§ Ms Hoey
Yes, I give way to one of the supporters of my amendment.

§ Mr. Peter Bottomley
If there is opposition to the amendment, I think that the House will want to vote on it. I hope that those hon. Members who feel as the hon. Lady and I do—that everyone in the UK should be treated in the same way—will try to ensure that there is an opportunity to vote on the matter on another day such as tomorrow.

§ Mr. Bill Walker
Can my hon. Friend the Minister give an assurance that if existing law is changed as a result of these amendments, anyone dismissed from the service under the existing legislation will not be able to appeal to the European Court and receive large sums of public money?

§ Mrs. Roche
I welcome the Minister's acceptance of new clause 82 in my name, but we continue to be disappointed that homosexual activity can still lead to dismissal. Anyone who saw the "Cutting Edge" television programme about able seaman Brett Bernell will know how disgraceful was his dismissal and treatment. In more enlightened times, and perhaps under a different Government, there may be a change of attitude.