HC Deb 30 November 1993 vol 233 cc911-2
11. Mrs. Mahon

To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what recent discussions he has had with the TUC on health and safety issues.

Mr. Michael Forsyth

I have had several meetings with the TUC to discuss health and safety, the most recent of which was yesterday.

Mrs. Mahon

Is the Minister aware that since the Labour Government introduced the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 the numbers of people killed or seriously injured at work have been reduced dramatically? How will workers taking their own toilet rolls and towels to work help British industry and resolve its problems? Will the Minister tell the House whether the Government's proposals on the deregulation of health and safety comply with the EC directive?

Mr. Forsyth

The Government have no proposals to deregulate health and safety. The deregulation review is being carried out by the Health and Safety Commission, which was established by the Labour Government. I am astonished that the hon. Lady seeks to attack the commission in carrying out that review. The hon. Lady's point about workers bringing their own soap and toilet rolls to work is fatuous nonsense in which the Government will have no part.

Mr. John Greenway

Is my hon. Friend aware that his announcement that the Government deregulation proposals will have no impact on health and safety will be warmly welcomed by workers in my constituency? Is he aware that the biggest employers in rural areas are in tourism, hotels, restaurants and catering and that they want to see the Government's deregulation initiative put into practice?

Mr. Forsyth

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Deregulation is important to ensure that firms are able to comply to maintain the effective health and safety regimes which everyone wants. The review is being carried out by the Health and Safety Commission, on which the TUC is represented and is playing a part. The Department of Trade and Industry has also asked business to make an input.

Quite frankly, the commission told me that it would need a special van to send round all the regulations which apply to health and safety in the workplace. There must be room for pruning and it is a pity that Opposition Members are not prepared to play a constructive role. Instead, they seem to want to make cheap political capital out of the important matter of safety and the competitiveness of this country.

Mr. Janner

Will the Minister tell the House why the vital new regulations introduced, on common ground and without dissent, in the House earlier this year are not yet being enforced at all in industry?

Mr. Forsyth

I know that the hon. and learned Gentleman has taken a close interest in the conduct of industrial tribunals, and I assure him that those changes will be introduced as rapidly as possible. I assume that he wishes to focus on that aspect, but his question did not make that absolutely clear. If he cares to write to me I shall be happy to assure him.

Mr. David Shaw

Can my hon. Friend confirm that the United Kingdom has one of the best safety records in Europe, and that, by ensuring that our safety procedures are not overly bureaucratic and burdensome, we have succeeded both in saving lives and in saving people from injury, while at the same time keeping many significant employers in this country?

Mr. Forsyth

We have the best safety record not only in Europe but in the world, and my hon. Friend is right to say that that depends on conduct in the workplace. For Opposition Members to argue that we should retain rules such as the agricultural ladders regulations, which specify the distance between the rungs of a ladder and the grain of the wood to be used to make it, is fatuous and nonsensical. No one with the interests of safety at heart would seek to portray the regulations in the emotional way in which Opposition Members, even those on the Front Bench, have sought to do in the press and elsewhere.

Mr. Barron

Will the Minister tell us whether it is right and proper for his Department to allow the Department of Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to repeal health and safety legislation by means of statutory instruments such as those laid down in clause 52 of the soon-to-be-published deregulation and contracting out Bill? If he, like me, has confidence in the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, and in the Health and Safety Commission, why does he not let the commission, rather than the ideologues in the Department of Trade and Industry, repeal unwanted legislation?

Mr. Forsyth

The hon. Gentleman would do better not to spend his time ferreting around in dustbins; he would not then be misled, as he clearly has been. The draft in his possession does not represent what will eventually appear. The hon. Gentleman should know that the House decides on regulations, and says which of them should be repealed, not the Health and Safety Commission. The commission makes proposals about regulations, and that will continue. The review is being carried out by the commission, with trade union representatives involved. The hon. Gentleman would do better to spend his time talking to those people, rather than scurrying round the dustbins of Whitehall.