HC Deb 24 May 1993 vol 225 cc629-33 '.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, the Secretary of State shall not exercise any of his functions under this Act relating to pensions until he has consulted the trustees of any existing scheme (within the meaning of Schedule 10) and such other persons as may have an interest, or appear to the Secretary of State to represent persons having an interest in any existing scheme, as to the feasibility of establishing a joint industry scheme, the form such a scheme might take, and the implications for participants in existing schemes. (2) Subsection (1) above shall not apply in any case where the trustees of a scheme have received actuarial advice that the fund may not be able to meet any of its actual or projected liabilities at any time from its actual or projected assets.'.—[Mr. Prescott.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Motion made, and Question put, That the clause be read a Second time—

The House divided: Ayes 270, Noes 304.

Division No. 278] [7 13 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Clapham, Michael
Adams, Mrs Irene Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Ainger, Nick Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Allen, Graham Clelland, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) Coffey, Ann
Armstrong, Hilary Connarty, Michael
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Ashton, Joe Corbett, Robin
Austin-Walker, John Corbyn, Jeremy
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Corston, Ms Jean
Barnes, Harry Cousins, Jim
Barron, Kevin Cox, Tom
Battle, John Cryer, Bob
Bayley, Hugh Cummings, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Cunliffe, Lawrence
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Bell, Stuart Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Dafis, Cynog
Bennett, Andrew F. Dalyell, Tam
Benton, Joe Darling, Alistair
Bermingham. Gerald Davidson, Ian
Berry, Dr. Roger Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Betts, Clive Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Blair, Tony Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Boateng, Paul Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Boyce, Jimmy Denham, John
Boyes, Roland Dewar, Donald
Bradley, Keith Dixon, Don
Bray, Dr Jeremy Dobson, Frank
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Donohoe, Brian H.
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Dowd, Jim
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Dunnachie, Jimmy
Burden, Richard Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Byers, Stephen Eagle, Ms Angela
Caborn, Richard Eastham, Ken
Callaghan, Jim Enright, Derek
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Etherington, Bill
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Evans, John (St Helens N)
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Canavan, Dennis Fatchett, Derek
Cann, Jamie Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Chisholm, Malcolm Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul McNamara, Kevin
Foster, Rt Hon Derek Madden, Max
Foulkes, George Mandelson, Peter
Fraser, John Marek, Dr John
Fyfe, Maria Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Galbraith, Sam Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Galloway, George Martlew, Eric
Gapes, Mike Maxton, John
Garrett, John Meacher, Michael
George, Bruce Meale, Alan
Gerrard, Neil Michael, Alun
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Godman, Dr Norman A. Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Godsiff, Roger Milburn, Alan
Golding, Mrs Llin Miller, Andrew
Gordon, Mildred Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Gould, Bryan Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Graham, Thomas Moonie, Dr Lewis
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) Morgan, Rhodri
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) Morley, Elliot
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Grocott, Bruce Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Gunnell, John Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Hain, Peter Mowlam, Marjorie
Hall, Mike Mudie, George
Hanson, David Murphy, Paul
Hardy, Peter Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Harman, Ms Harriet O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Harvey, Nick O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy O'Hara, Edward
Henderson, Doug Olner, William
Heppell, John Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Parry, Robert
Hinchliffe, David Patchett, Terry
Hoey, Kate Pendry, Tom
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) Pickthall, Colin
Hood, Jimmy Pike, Peter L.
Hoon, Geoffrey Pope, Greg
Howarth, George (Knowsley N) Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Howeils, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hoyle, Doug Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Prescott, John
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Primarolo, Dawn
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) Purchase, Ken
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Quin, Ms Joyce
Hutton, John Radice, Giles
Ingram, Adam Randall. Stuart
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) Raynsford, Nick
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Redmond, Martin
Jamieson, David Reid, Dr John
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) Rendel, David
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) Rogers, Allan
Jowell, Tessa Rooker, Jeff
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Rooney, Terry
Keen, Alan Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross, C&S) Rowlands, Ted
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) Ruddock, Joan
Khabra, Piara S. Salmond, Alex
Kilfoyle, Peter Sedgemore, Brian
Kirkwood, Archy Sheerman, Barry
Leighton, Ron Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Litherland, Robert Short, Clare
Livingstone, Ken Simpson, Alan
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Skinner, Dennis
Llwyd, Elfyn Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Loyden, Eddie Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Lynne, Ms Liz Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E)
McAllion, John Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
McAvoy, Thomas Snape, Peter
McCartney, Ian Soley, Clive
Macdonald, Calum Spearing, Nigel
McFall, John Steinberg, Gerry
McKelvey, William Stevenson, George
Mackinlay, Andrew Stott, Roger
McLeish, Henry Strang, Dr. Gavin
McMaster, Gordon Straw, Jack
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) Wigley, Dafydd
Taylor, Matthew (Truro) Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Tipping, Paddy Wilson, Brian
Turner, Dennis Winnick, David
Tyler, Paul Wise, Audrey
Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold Worthington, Tony
Wallace, James Wray, Jimmy
Walley, Joan Young, David (Bolton SE)
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N Tellers for the Ayes:
Watson, Mike Mr. John Spellar and Mr. Eric Illsley.
Wicks, Malcolm
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Aitken, Jonathan Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Alexander, Richard Davis, David (Boothferry)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Day, Stephen
Amess, David Deva, Nirj Joseph
Ancram, Michael Devlin, Tim
Arbuthnot, James Dickens, Geoffrey
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Dicks, Terry
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) Dorrell, Stephen
Ashby, David Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Aspinwall, Jack Dover, Den
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) Duncan, Alan
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Duncan-Smith, Iain
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) Dunn, Bob
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) Dykes, Hugh
Baldry, Tony Eggar, Tim
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Elletson, Harold
Bates, Michael Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Batiste, Spencer Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Bellingham, Henry Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Bendall, Vivian Evennett, David
Beresford, Sir Paul Faber, David
Biffen, Rt Hon John Fabricant, Michael
Blackburn, Dr John G. Fenner, Dame Peggy
Body, Sir Richard Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Booth, Hartley Fishburn, Dudley
Boswell, Tim Forman, Nigel
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Bowden, Andrew Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Bowis, John Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Freeman, Roger
Brandreth, Gyles French, Douglas
Brazier, Julian Fry, Peter
Bright, Graham Gale, Roger
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Gallie, Phil
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Gardiner, Sir George
Browning, Mrs. Angela Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) Garnier, Edward
Budgen, Nicholas Gill, Christopher
Burns, Simon Gillan, Cheryl
Burt, Alistair Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Butler, Peter Gorst, John
Butterfill, John Grant, Sir Anthony (Cambs SW)
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Carrington, Matthew Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Carttiss, Michael Grylls, Sir Michael
Cash, William Hague, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Churchill, Mr Hampson, Dr Keith
Clappison, James Hannam, Sir John
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Hargreaves, Andrew
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) Harris, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, Alan
Coe, Sebastian Hawkins, Nick
Congdon, David Hawksley, Warren
Conway, Derek Hayes, Jerry
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) Heald, Oliver
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John Heathcoat-Amory, David
Cormack, Patrick Hendry, Charles
Couchman, James Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Cran, James Hicks, Robert
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Hill, James (Southampton Test) Ottaway, Richard
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) Page, Richard
Horam, John Paice, James
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter Patnick, Irvine
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Patten, Rt Hon John
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Pickles, Eric
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) Porter, David (Waveney)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Hunter, Andrew Powell, William (Corby)
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas Rathbone, Tim
Jack, Michael Redwood, John
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Jenkin, Bernard Richards, Rod
Jessel, Toby Riddick, Graham
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) Robathan, Andrew
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Key, Robert Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Kilfedder, Sir James Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
King, Rt Hon Tom Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Knapman, Roger Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Knight, Greg (Derby N) Sackville, Tom
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Knox, David Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) Shaw, David (Dover)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Lang, Rt Hon Ian Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lawrence, Sir Ivan Shersby, Michael
Legg, Barry Sims, Roger
Leigh, Edward Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lennox-Boyd, Mark Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lidington, David Soames, Nicholas
Lightbown, David Speed, Sir Keith
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter Spencer, Sir Derek
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Lord, Michael Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Luff, Peter Spink, Dr Robert
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Spring, Richard
MacGregor, Rt Hon John Sproat, Iain
MacKay, Andrew Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Maclean, David Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
McLoughlin, Patrick Steen, Anthony
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Stephen, Michael
Madel, David Stern, Michael
Maitland, Lady Olga Stewart, Allan
Major, Rt Hon John Streeter, Gary
Malone, Gerald Sumberg, David
Mans, Keith Sweeney, Walter
Marland, Paul Sykes, John
Marlow, Tony Tapsell, Sir Peter
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian Temple-Morris, Peter
Mellor, Rt Hon David Thomason, Roy
Merchant, Piers Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Milligan, Stephen Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mills, Iain Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Thurnham, Peter
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Moate, Sir Roger Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Monro, Sir Hector Tracey, Richard
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Tredinnick, David
Moss, Malcolm Trend, Michael
Needham, Richard Trotter, Neville
Nelson, Anthony Twinn, Dr Ian
Neubert, Sir Michael Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Waller, Gary
Norris, Steve Ward, John
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Oppenheim, Phillip Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wells, Bowen Wolfson, Mark
Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John Wood, Timothy
Whitney, Ray Yeo, Tim
Whittingdale, John Young, Sir George (Acton)
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry Tellers for the Noes:
Wilkinson, John Mr. Sydney Chapman and Mr. Timothy Kirkhope.
Willetts, David

Question accordingly negatived.

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