HC Deb 24 May 1993 vol 225 cc562-4
8. Mr. Congdon

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the benefits to bus users outside London of deregulation.

12. Mr. Ian Taylor

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what change has taken place in bus mileage outside London since deregulation.

Mr. Freeman

The deregulation of bus services outside London has resulted in a 20 per cent. increase in bus mileage, with many new services to areas not previously served by buses. Operator costs have been reduced by more than a third.

Mr. Congdon

Given the real success of deregulation in providing more buses, will my hon. Friend confirm that Londoners can expect to receive similar benefits when it is introduced here? When will we have an opportunity to experience those benefits?

Mr. Freeman

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. Deregulation will permit new operators to provide additional services at different times of the week and in different parts of Greater London. That is the experience of deregulation outside London.

Ms Walley

It is not.

Mr. Freeman

The hon. Lady has her eyes closed. In many parts of the country, new buses are providing new services for passengers.

Mr. Ian Taylor

Will my hon. Friend note that in Surrey, as in other areas, some of the services that are now provided are much more responsive to the needs of local people? That is extremely welcome and if deregulation enables it to continue in London, it will be welcomed by Londoners as well. There is no doubt, however, that it is essential for the Government to ensure that the rules and regulations enable bus services to continue: they are much in demand.

Mr. Freeman

My hon. Friend will know that the Government intend to introduce a Bill in due course and to set up a central agency in London to continue to subsidise socially necessary services. Outside London, the position is different: subsidies are provided by local authorities.

Mr. Redmond

The Minister is talking a load of rubbish. He knows that deregulation does not work. It has meant higher fares, clapped-out buses and, in most cases, no buses at all in both rural and urban areas. Will the Minister accept that deregulation has not worked? Will he go up to South Yorkshire and ask old-age pensioners about it?

Mr. Freeman

We have issued a consultation document to all local authorities—and, I hope, to all local bus companies—asking them to comment on how the 1985 arrangements are working. If improvements are necessary to ensure that services are provided flexibly by the private sector, we shall consider introducing legislation.

Mr. Wilson

I am sure that the Minister knows—as does everyone else with an interest in these matters—of the 30 per cent. reduction in the number of passengers in urban areas outside London and the 30 per cent. increase in fares. If the Tories regard that as a success story, they are welcome to it.

I am sure that the Minister's colleagues are anxious for parallels to be made with rail privatisation today. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how many private operators run schemes offering discounted through-ticketing for journeys covering more than one operator's area?

Mr. Freeman

Almost without exception, in areas outside London, local authorities have sponsored and the private sector now participates in, multi-modal travel-cards. That is true of Manchester, where representatives of the Manchester Metro are discussing with local authorities the introduction of a local travelcard. The hon. Gentleman was right about the reduction in patronage, but that has been happening since the second world war. There has been a gradual decline in the use of buses because people prefer the flexibility of using a car. We must face the challenge to halt and reverse that trend—Conservative policies will meet that challenge.