§ 8. Mr. Harry GreenwayTo ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the current pupil-teacher ratio in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools; what the figures were in 1979; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. HanleyThe latest available pupil-to-teacher ratio, at January 1992, was 22.6 in primary schools and 15.3 in secondary schools. The figures in 1979, for which my hon. Friend also asked, were 23.8 and 15.6 respectively
§ Mr. GreenwayI welcome that improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio since 1979. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the pupil-teacher ratio in Northern Ireland is better than that in England? Will he also say what he thinks that the pupil-teacher ratio should be, and against what kind of criteria it should be decided? Who decides what the best pupil-teacher ratio is?
§ Mr. HanleyMy hon. Friend is extremely knowledgeable in these matters and I believe that he takes a regular interest in pupil-teacher ratios, but I am afraid that I shall have to put him straight on one aspect. In secondary schools in Northern Ireland the PTR is lower than in England, 15.3 compared with 15.8, but in primary schools the PTR is 22.6, which is above the 22.2 for England. So we cannot look at the figures and say that Northern Ireland is better all round. The second part of my hon. Friend's question related to the optimum PTR. The pupil-teacher ratio under local management of schools is increasingly a matter for each individual school; the school must decide what its staffing levels should he within its own delegated budget and it must, therefore, decide the priorities for teachers. It is not down to the Government to dictate the PTR, and it is certainly not for us to say what an optimum PTR might be.
§ Rev. Martin SmythDoes the Minister accept that the lack of universal nursery education is penalising many young people in Northern Ireland, particularly those from deprived backgrounds where they do not get the stimulus required to equip them for primary and secondary education? Does he agree that if we had better nursery provision many of the difficulties that arise later would be removed?
§ Mr. HanleyI am a great believer in the benefits of nursery education, but I believe that Governments should adhere first to their statutory responsibilities while trying to find additional revenue for their non-statutory responsibilities. I agree that nursery education can benefit children for the future.
§ Mr. BarnesWhat is the pupil-teacher ratio in integrated education, which is the best form of education 398 in Northern Ireland? A good pupil-teacher ratio in those schools would encourage the further development of integrated education. Has the Minister seen the recent issue of Fortnight which contains articles with extracts from essays written by students at Lagan college? One 15-year-old student pointed out that there are borders in the mind, borders in prisons, borders in education and even borders in entertainment. The removal of those borders would improve the situation in Northern Ireland, and integrated education will help to achieve that.
§ Mr. HanleyI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support for integrated education. The figures that I gave relate either to primary schools or secondary schools and are not sub-divided into those for integrated schools, but I will certainly provide that information to the hon. Gentleman.