HC Deb 02 March 1993 vol 220 cc132-3
11. Mr. Steinberg

To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make a statement about pupil-teacher ratios in all schools and separately in primary and secondary schools.

Mr. Forth

As at January 1992 the overall pupil-teacher ratio in England stood at 17.44:1, compared with 18.94:1 in 1979. The within school pupil-teacher ratios were 22.21:1 for primary schools and 15.83:1 for secondary schools.

Mr. Steinberg

Is the Minister aware that throughout the country many teachers have lost their jobs because of the funding arrangements? In my constituency, for example, Gilesgate primary school has lost three teachers over the past three years, which has had a detrimental effect on the pupil-teacher ratio. When will the Government accept that more resources are needed so that schools can pay their teachers and give children an equal opportunity in education?

Mr. Forth

The hon. Gentleman seems to resent the fact that through local management of schools and grant-maintained status we are now giving the responsibility for staffing and the management of schools to governors and heads. They are the people in the best position to make arrangements for teaching in schools and classrooms and it is to them that we entrust that responsibility, which they are discharging admirably.

Mr. Colin Shepherd

Does my hon. Friend agree that one way in which local education authorities can improve pupil-teacher ratios is to dismantle the expensive administration of school meals and devolve the arrangements to parents? Does he recall that my local authority employed more than 170 additional teachers by dispensing with that apparatus?

Mr. Forth

In the matter of meals I defer to my hon. Friend, who is the House's expert. He has made an important point—the more opportunities that those who are responsible for managing schools, such as governors, heads and staff, take to alter the arrangements so as to deliver the best quality of education and the maximum expenditure in the classroom, the better the quality of education will be. We want to see the most flexible arrangements and the greatest possible variety of arrangements in schools throughout the country, as befits local requirements.

Mrs. Ann Taylor

Does the Minister believe that class sizes matter in terms of the quality of education delivered to our children?

Mr. Forth

I do not believe that there is any proven connection between class sizes and quality of education.

Mr. Haselhurst

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is an interesting fact that about 14 years ago the discussions were about reducing the size of classes that still contained more than 40 pupils, whereas today the discussion is about removing the remaining classes with more than 30 pupils? Is not that a measure of the progress that has been made under the Government in improving teacher-pupil ratios?

Mr. Forth

Yes, indeed. The vast bulk of our children are educated in classes of fewer than 30. The average class size is well under 30. It would be wrong to focus exclusively and entirely on that. It may be a factor, but it is by no means the definitive factor.