§ Lords amendment: No. 6, in, page 6, line 7, at end insert—("(2A) Subsection (1) does not apply where the immediate landlord under the lease is a registered housing association and all the flats in the premises are—
§ (a) particularly suitable, having regard to their location, size, design, heating systems and other features, for occupation by persons of pensionable age, and
§ (b) are occupied by persons of pensionable age on physically disabled persons, and
§ (c) have special facilities which include the services of either a resident warden or a non-resident warden and a means for calling them.")
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.— [ Mr. Baldry.]
§ Mr. BattleI am surprised that the Government tabled the motion. Lords amendment No. 6 omits sheltered housing and accommodation that is specially adapted for 649 disabled and elderly people. I should have thought that it is a common sense and reasonable amendment that the Government would accept. In all other cases, the Government take away the rights of leaseholders left, right and centre by tightening the framework of the Bill, but in this case—I press the Government to give their estimate of the number of flats that are affected—when common sense would suggest that there should be an exemption to ensure that sheltered housing and specially adapted dwellings remain, they have decided to ensure that there is a right to enfranchisement. They would do far better to address the real needs of people in flats and houses who will be denied enfranchisement by the strict low-rent test and other measures, including some that they accepted in the other place.
Interestingly, when the amendment was moved in the other place, there were no Tellers, because the Chief Whip and the Deputy Chief Whip were not in the Chamber when a vote was sprung on the Government. In that sense, the Government lost it without even opposing it, yet now they come back to the House to try to repair the results of their incompetence in the other place.
It is surprising that housing association schemes are now included. The amendment would exclude leasehold schemes for elderly people from leasehold enfrachisement where the freeholder is a registered housing association. Under the Bill as drafted, leaseholders of housing association sheltered housing schemes can exercise enfranchisement where they own 100 per cent. of the leasehold interests.
The amendment seeks to exclude sheltered housing from the enfranchisement provisions. It would affect only a tiny number of schemes where the association had not received housing association grant. For housing association grant-funded schemes, the association is required to retain 20 per cent. of the equity. Under clause 6, enfranchisement would not then apply. Instead, under chapter II, the individual leaseholder would have an automatic right to renew the lease, but many housing associations have undertaken sheltered housing schemes without using housing association grants.
The amendment would affect such schemes. The proposal was not made lightly by the National Federation of Housing Associations, on behalf of all housing associations. It argues that, if the Government now decide to vote against the Lords amendment, the Bill would discriminate against elderly and disabled people, for whom special provision has been made.
Faced with the needs of an aging population, housing associations that have undertaken leasehold schemes to provide sheltered housing for elderly people are most concerned that, if leasehold enfranchisement applies to such housing it could, in time, lead to the loss of the warden service and other special provisions simply because they cost money. Ultimately, those properties could be sold to non-elderly buyers, which in turn would reduce the overall supply of sheltered accommodation at precisely the time when the need for it is increasing. According to Government figures, by the year 2001 there will be 1 million people in Britain over 85. The need for sheltered accommodation is increasing and the Government's petty approach, which will diminish stock, is damaging.
Why are the Government making such a proposal? I do not think that they have an argument. The amendment was carefully drafted to ensure that only those schemes that genuinely provide sheltered housing are included.
650 What is more, the wording of paragraph 10 of schedule 5 to the Housing Act 1985—the Government's own housing legislation—excludes sheltered housing from the right-to-buy provision precisely because it would diminish the amount of housing stock in Britain at a time when we need a supply of sheltered housing to rent. As the amendment mirrors almost exactly the wording of paragraph 10 of schedule 5 to the 1985 Act, it seems illogical, irrational and petty that the Government should now turn against it.
It may be suggested that restrictive covenants could do the job as well as the amendment, but they could be changed by agreement between the new freeholder and leaseholders once the freehold has passed to another body. The retention of sheltered housing for its original purpose cannot therefore be guaranteed by those restrictive covenants. That could be achieved only by excluding such housing from the Bill's provisions.
I challenge the Minister—before he pushes the motion through on the nod—to tell the House how many properties will be affected and how many people will be enfranchised by the provision. He should compare and contrast that with the number of people who will be unfairly excluded from leasehold enfranchisement by the restrictive clauses that the Government have built into the Bill, and also by the further restrictive clauses that the Government have accepted from the other place.
If the clause is accepted, and housing associations' sheltered housing schemes are excluded from enfranchisement, elderly leaseholders would automatically receive the right under chapter II of the Bill to renew their lease in line with leaseholders in housing association grant-funded schemes. It could be argued—I should be interested to hear the Minister's opinion—that that right, rather than outright enfranchisement, would be more beneficial to the elderly people concerned. It would guarantee that the amount of sheltered and specially adapted accommodation to rent could be expanded.
§ Mr. BaldryI do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity to discuss the amendment with organisations such as Age Concern since it was debated in the other place.
Since the amendment was accepted in the Lords, we have received representations from organisations such as Age Concern and the Association of Retired Persons, which have expressed their dismay at the exemption from enfranchisement of such developments. The amendment is clearly discriminatory, and that is their concern. The amendment deliberately discriminates against the elderly. There is no fundamental reason why developments for the elderly and disabled that are owned by housing associations should be excluded from the scope of enfranchisement.
The hon. Gentleman has expressed a concern—also put forward by the National Federation of Housing Associations—that, once the freehold has been bought, flats may be sold to people who are neither old nor disabled. That is a misunderstanding. Flats would not necessarily move out of the sheltered housing sector. Enfranchisement does not affect the terms of leases, so any restrictive covenants which might, for instance, specify that the flats were to be let only to the elderly, will remain in force after the freehold has been bought. Such covenants in the leases of non-participants cannot be changed without the agreement of both parties to the lease. Those would include housing associations.
651 The Lords amendment clearly discriminates against the elderly. It has met with vehement opposition from organisations such as Age Concern, and I urge the House to disagree with it.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 243, Noes 148.
653| Division No. 294] | [4.22 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Evennett, David |
| Alexander, Richard | Faber, David |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Fabricant, Michael |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Forman, Nigel |
| Ashby, David | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Forth, Eric |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Baldry, Tony | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | French, Douglas |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Gale, Roger |
| Bates, Michael | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Garnier, Edward |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Gill, Christopher |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Booth, Hartley | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Boswell, Tim | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Gorst, John |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Grant, Sir Anthony (Cambs SW) |
| Bowis, John | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Brazier, Julian | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Bright, Graham | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Hague, William |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Burns, Simon | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Burt, Alistair | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Butcher, John | Hannam, Sir John |
| Butler, Peter | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Butterfill, John | Harris, David |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hawkins, Nick |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hawksley, Warren |
| Cash, William | Hayes, Jerry |
| Chapman, Sydney | Heald, Oliver |
| Clappison, James | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hendry, Charles |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Colvin, Michael | Horam, John |
| Congdon, David | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Conway, Derek | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
| Cope, Rt'Hon Sir John | Howell, Sir Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Cormack, Patrick | |
| Couchman, James | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Jack, Michael |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Jessel, Toby |
| Devlin, Tim | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) |
| Duncan, Alan | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Dunn, Bob | Key, Robert |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Kilfedder, Sir James |
| Eggar, Tim | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Elletson, Harold | Knapman, Roger |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
| Knox, Sir David | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Legg, Barry | Sackville, Tom |
| Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Lidington, David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Lightbown, David | Shersby, Michael |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Sims, Roger |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lord, Michael | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Luff, Peter | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| MacKay, Andrew | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Maclean, David | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Spink, Dr Robert |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Spring, Richard |
| Madel, David | Sproat, Iain |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Malone, Gerald | Steen, Anthony |
| Mans, Keith | Stephen, Michael |
| Marland, Paul | Stern, Michael |
| Marlow, Tony | Stewart, Allan |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Streeter, Gary |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Sykes, John |
| Mellor, Rt Hon David | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Merchant, Piers | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Milligan, Stephen | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Mills, Iain | Thomason, Roy |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Thurnham, Peter |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Tredinnick, David |
| Moss, Malcolm | Trend, Michael |
| Nelson, Anthony | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Viggers, Peter |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Walden, George |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Waller, Gary |
| Norris, Steve | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Ottaway, Richard | Waterson, Nigel |
| Paice, James | Watts, John |
| Patnick, Irvine | Wells, Bowen |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Pickles, Eric | Whitney, Ray |
| Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Whittingdale, John |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Wiggin, Sir Jerry |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Willetts, David |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Wood, Timothy |
| Richards, Rod | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Riddick, Graham | |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Robathan, Andrew | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Mr. Andrew Mitchell. |
| NOES | |
| Ainger, Nick | Caborn, Richard |
| Allen, Graham | Callaghan, Jim |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Campbell-Savours, D. N. |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) |
| Barnes, Harry | Clapham, Michael |
| Barron, Kevin | Clark, Dr David (South Shields) |
| Battle, John | Clwyd, Mrs Ann |
| Bayley, Hugh | Coffey, Ann |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Corbett, Robin |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Cryer, Bob |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
| Berry, Dr. Roger | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Blair, Tony | Dalyell, Tam |
| Boyce, Jimmy | Darling, Alistair |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Denham, John | Mandelson, Peter |
| Dewar, Donald | Martlew, Eric |
| Dixon, Don | Maxton, John |
| Dobson, Frank | Meacher, Michael |
| Donohoe, Brian H. | Meale, Alan |
| Dowd, Jim | Michael, Alun |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Eagle, Ms Angela | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Eastham, Ken | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Enright, Derek | Murphy, Paul |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | O'Brien, William (Normanton) |
| Fisher, Mark | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Flynn, Paul | Patchett, Terry |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Pendry, Tom |
| Garrett, John | Pickthall, Colin |
| George, Bruce | Pike, Peter L. |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Pope, Greg |
| Gordon, Mildred | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Prescott, John |
| Grocott, Bruce | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Gunnell, John | Raynsford, Nick |
| Hall, Mike | Rendel, David |
| Hanson, David | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Hardy, Peter | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
| Harvey, Nick | Rogers, Allan |
| Henderson, Doug | Rooney, Terry |
| Hinchliffe, David | Rowlands, Ted |
| Hoey, Kate | Ruddock, Joan |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Short, Clare |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Hutton, John | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury) |
| Illsley, Eric | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Spellar, John |
| Jamieson, David | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Stott, Roger |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Straw, Jack |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Tyler, Paul |
| Keen, Alan | Vaz, Keith |
| Khabra, Piara S. | Wareing, Robert N |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Lewis, Terry | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Litherland, Robert | Wise, Audrey |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Worthington, Tony |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| McAllion, John | |
| McCartney, Ian | Tellers for the Noes: |
| McFall, John | Mr. Peter Kilfoyle and |
| Madden, Max | Mr. Gordon McMaster. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.