HC Deb 07 June 1993 vol 226 cc15-6
32. Mr. Alan Howarth

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement on his meeting with the authors of' "Reinventing Government".

Mr. Waldegrave

I have had meetings with both authors and have been impressed by the way in which they have put forward proposals very similar to ours in the citizens charter, aimed at getting better performance out of public services at a time of spending restraint.

Mr. Howarth

Does my right hon. Friend agree that for a considerable number of years the Government have been putting in place many of the elements of what Osborne and Gaebler term "entrepreneurial government"? Rather than mock the citizens charter, would not the Labour party do better to learn from it?

Does my right hon. Friend further agree that if the approach outlined in "Reinventing Government" is to be developed further here, as I believe it must be, two implications follow—we will need a new and better concordat between central and local government and we shall need more freedom of information?

Mr. Waldegrave

On the latter two points, first, the Government have made it clear that they want good relations with local government. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister recently met the leaders of the various associations. Secondly, I assure my hon. Friend that no other Government have taken such steps to widen the publication of information.

On the Osborne and Gaebler point, I shall quote Joe Rogaly, an independent journalist who writes in the Financial Times. He said about the Labour party: It is as if it not only missed the Osborne and Gaebler bus, it never saw it coming. That is an accurate description of the Labour party's understanding of these issues.

Ms Mowlam

I want to clarify one point. The Labour party did create charters at the local authority level—in York, Birmingham and Leicester—before the Minister even thought of them. The distinct point is that charters actually work at the local level because there is commitment to accountability and freedom of information, which is not shared by the Government. The Minister was fulsome in his praise of "Reinventing Government" and he quoted Joe Rogaly. Is he aware that the authors said that if market testing is just about skimping on wages, the Government should re-evaluate what they are doing? The authors of the Minister's favourite book asked for that, and for some time we have been asking for a moratorium on market testing. It now appears that the Minister will not meet his targets for market testing that he wanted to achieve by September. Is he now listening to us about moratoriums on market testing as well as about charters?

Mr. Waldegrave

It is not my job to sort out the problems within the Labour party on this matter. Perhaps the hon. Lady should have some discussions with her hon. Friends. It is clear that she has not read the book, which has a strong passage in support of market testing. Obviously, she has also not read the White Paper "Competing for Quality". It is not just about cutting costs; it is about quality. If we can get quality at lower costs, that is certainly what we should do.

Mr. Anthony Coombs

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the principles of Osborne and Gaebler is that both national and local government should be steering rather than rowing, to put it in their terms? Is not that in line with the Government's commitment to contracting out? Are there not lessons for Labour local authorities, especially education authorities, in their attitude towards grant-maintained schools, which have precisely the independence that is so lauded by Osborne and Gaebler?

Mr. Waldegrave

My hon. Friend is right, although I think that some far-seeing people on the left also understand that. I am sorry that the Opposition do not. John Willman, who used to run the Fabian Society, wrote: In the UK it has been the Conservatives under John Major who have seized the 'reinventing' government agenda. That is true.