HC Deb 15 July 1993 vol 228 cc1198-202

.(1) The Board shall have the objective of maintaining and expanding the use of the Welsh language.

(2) The Board shall—

  1. (a) advise the Secretary of State on matters concerning the Welsh language;
  2. (b) promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language in public business;
  3. (c) advise persons exercising functions of a public nature in Wales on
    1. (i) the use of the Welsh language in their dealings with the public; and
    2. (ii) how they may best give effect to the principle that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice, the status of the Welsh language shall not be less than that of the English language; and
  4. (d) advise other persons on the voluntary use of the Welsh language in their dealings with the public.

(3) Subject to the following provisions, the Board may do anything which is incidental or conducive to the performance of its functions, and may in particular—

  1. (a) make grants and loans and give guarantees;
  2. (b) make charges for the provision of advice or other services;
  3. (c) accept gifts of money or other property.

(4) The Board shall not—

  1. (a) make a grant or loan,
  2. (b) give a guarantee, or
  3. (c) acquire or dispose of any interest in land, except with the approval of the Secretary of State given with the consent of the Treasury'.—[Mr. Morgan.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:

No. 23, in page 1, clause 3, leave out from beginning of line 17 to end of line 24 on page 2.

No. 18, in page 2, line 18, at end insert—

  1. (d) formulate and publish from time to time guidelines and codes of good practice as to the use of Welsh in commerce and other fields of activity as it may think fit;
  2. (e) provide translation and interpretation services for Government departments, public bodies or other persons and organisations;
  3. (f) commission and carry out research relating to the Welsh language and publish information obtained thereby;
  4. (g) advertise and otherwise promote its activities'.

Mr. Morgan

This is an attempt by our team of parliamentary draftsmen to redraft new clause 3 completely and replace it with a fallback position. We half anticipated that the Government would not make any concessions or movement towards us on the issue of official status in new clause 1. We thought that if that were to happen, the only way to put some meat on the somewhat threadbare—to mix my metaphors—structure of the Bill would be to insert a set of goals and objectives for the board by completely taking out the existing clause 3 and replacing it. We have retained some of the powers to give grants and so on that were in the original clause 3, but have said what the board is supposed to do.

The Bill will succeed or fail on the basis of the Minister of State's answer when he is asked, when eventually he gives up the reins of office, "What did you do for the Welsh language, Daddy?" As he may already be a granddaddy, he will probably be a great-granddaddy by then. He will say, "I set up a quango for it". We want him also to be able to say what the quango was supposed to do. That is not clear from the Bill because the quango is not given any objectives. It is given a function, but it cannot test that function against an overall objective.

Our new clause states that the Board shall have the objective of maintaining and expanding the use of the Welsh language. We want the Welsh language to remain a common language of fluent use in the countryside and in some of the few remaining industrial areas of Wales—in the anthracite coalfields, the tin plate areas of west Wales, the former slate quarrying areas of north-west Wales, and so on—where it may not be much of a written language.

We also wanted to expand the use of the Welsh language by adding written fluency as well as public and private sector use of the language. Clearly, in the spirit of the Bill, private sector use would have to be voluntary.

I mention that because page 50, paragraph 4.47, of the White Paper on public expenditure, command 2215, boasts about the constructive activities of the Welsh Language Board and says: It has achieved significant progress in a number of areas including the "Iaith Gwaith" (Working Welsh) scheme which encourages the use of Welsh in the workplace and the "CYSILL" Welsh-language computer spellcheck project. Both those projects—mainly the first but to an extent the second—are of enormous interest to the private sector. But as the Bill makes no mention of the private sector we have added a reference to it and said that it should be able voluntarily to be included. The Welsh Language Board would therefore not be acting outside its statutory powers by getting involved with the private sector. Although there would be no compulsion on the private sector, the board would have every encouragement to spend its resources on schemes in the spirit of the "Iaith Gwaith" and "CYSILL" projects, about which the Government thought it worth while to boast in their most recent reference to why they were spending money on the Welsh Language Board while it remains non-statutory.

New clause 11 is infinitely superior to clause 3 because it gives an objective and a statutory basis to activities involving the private sector.

Mr. Rowlands

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) for introducing the new clause because it does at least endeavour to establish objectives for the language board.

I started out as a fan of the Bill, but, as the Report stage has proceeded, I have grown increasingly disillusioned by it. One of the reasons why disillusionment has crept in is that the Bill asks for a legislative blank cheque, which I have grave doubts about whether we should grant. For example, the Bill empowers public bodies to form schemes, but we have no idea of the character of those schemes. The Bill contains no illustrative ideas or draft models of the schemes. The schemes have no boundaries or content and we do not know the principles on which they are to be based. They must follow guidelines, but we have no idea what the parameters of the guidelines will be because they are not defined in the Bill.

The Bill also establishes a board, but we do not know how much it will cost because Ministers have refused to give even an estimate. Thus the Bill will establish a board costing an unknown sum annually to draft guidelines to be followed by public bodies drawing up schemes. But we know the shape and size of neither the guidelines nor the schemes. All that we know about the board is that 15 persons will sit on it.

It is time that the Minister gave us a clearer indication of the nature of those schemes and guidelines. Exactly what will the board propose? Until the Committee stage, I thought that I knew what the board was supposed to do because the invaluable document, "Guidelines to the Public Sector", gives an idea of the character of the present language board's activities. Based on the sensible, well-balanced view about the role and future role of the language and its promotion, I thought that I could support that excellent idea. We do not know if that is the sort of objective of the new statutory language board. We discover more and more that it will wander into all sorts of areas of activity that, in my opinion, will cause the board a lot of problems and will create a great deal of tension around its work.

9.15 pm

As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West rightly said that we must better define the board's objectives, I shall ask the Minister two or three simple questions and this time hope for answers. What will be the likely average annual cost of the board? I asked him that question over and over again in Committee. If he cannot give us an estimate, will he tell us what estimate the present Welsh Language Board has given him? I understand that it has estimated the costs and has presented them to him. We are entitled to know what the Welsh Language Board, as the most authoritative institution on that matter, has estimated. Will the Minister give us that figure?

We are told that the Welsh Language Board will take over the responsibility for allocating some of the available grants, as set out under clause 3. Will the Minister specifically confirm that, under the provisions of clause 3, power to allocate grants will be given to the Welsh Language Board? As I understand it, most of the grants that we call section 26 money under the Development Board for Rural Wales Act 1991 and the bodies that receive them are listed on page 49 of the White Paper on Government expenditure. In total, £2.7 million of grants are listed which are given to a variety of bodies and organisations. Is the intention that the decision on who should receive those grants listed and their disbursement will be transferred to the Welsh Language Board? What percentage of the money that goes to the Welsh Books Council, for example, will be handled by the Welsh Language Board? Will the board be able to make such decisions?

The allocation of grants is an important function. Are we to transfer what is currently a Welsh Office responsibility lock, stock and barrel? If we are not, which grants that are currently paid under section 26 are to be administered and disbursed by the Welsh Language Board, which will therefore have the discretion to change and move such disbursements? Those are vital questions about the nature and functions of the Welsh Language Board. We were not given any answers in Committee and we deserve them now. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West has done a great service in trying to force the Minister to provide a better clarification of the character, nature and scope of the board.

Sir Wyn Roberts

New clause 11 largely replicates the terms of new clause 3. There are some significant differences that cause me concern, especially the recasting of the board's main duty. The alternative duties contained in the new clause serve to confuse what we intend the board to do and what we hope will happen to the Welsh language as a result.

The board's function of promoting and facilitating the use of Welsh has been deliberately cast in the most flexible terms possible. There is no restriction on the board's function, so that seems to be a fair description of the contribution that we can fairly expect it to make. It does nothing to clarify the board's legal duties to confuse it with matters that are ultimately outside its control.

We may all agree that one of the board's objectives is to maintain and expand the use of the Welsh language. That is not something that we can sensibly reflect on the face of the Bill. We shall, of course, want to agree objectives for the board and those will be matters to be discussed in the context of the board's corporate plan. We shall also need to be able to monitor whether the objectives have been achieved over a reasonable period. The outstanding characteristic of the objective proposed in the new clause is that it could be monitored only over a very long period. It would, therefore, be of little use in holding the board to account for its actions. The new clause does nothing to clarify the board's main duties and powers. It serves rather to confuse the board's actions with what we might hope would be the outcome of those actions.

As I made clear in Committee, I am pleased to be able to agree that each of the elements referred to in amendment No. 18 is an activity with which the board should have the power to become involved, although we see the board's role in translation and interpretation as that of an enabler and facilitator, rather than as a provider. The amendment could introduce legal uncertainty about whether the board had the power to undertake other promotional activities that are not specifically listed in clause 3(3). Keeping the list in the clause as short as possible ensures that whatever uncertainty may arise on that point is kept to an absolute minimum, thus allowing the board maximum flexibility.

To further that flexibility, clause 3 is deliberately restricted to listing the board's main promotional and advisory functions. That will ensure that there will be no legislative obstacles to the board's promoting the language whenever or wherever it is spoken. That reflects the arm's length nature that we intend should be a feature of the relationship between the board and the Government.

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) asked me some specific questions. I understand that the board's estimate has been submitted to my officials. Of course, we have to study those estimates and the eventual allocation to the board will be our decision. It is too early in the day for me to give any further information on that point.

Mr. Rowlands

The Minister has an estimate. I do not seek to tie him down, because I know that the decision is for him, his Department and the Government, but will he tell us what it is?

Sir Wyn Roberts

The board has submitted an estimate. That estimate is subject to discussion between the Welsh Office and the board. We shall have to go over it. We have not agreed it as an accepted estimate.

Mr. Rowlands

What is the estimate?

Sir Wyn Roberts

It would not be proper for me at this stage—

Mr. Rowlands

What is the estimate?

Madam Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that seated interventions of that kind are to be deplored, however anxious he is for an answer.

Sir Wyn Roberts

The hon. Gentleman—

Mr. Rowlands

Why is the Minister so coy? Before we approve the Bill which will establish the board, we are entitled at least to know what is the estimate of the present Welsh Language Board. Will the Minister just tell us? We are not tying the Government to a figure. Will the Minister please tell us what the board's estimate of the cost is?

Sir Wyn Roberts

It would be misleading for me to give a figure to the House because it might raise or decrease expectations. It would be misleading because the estimate that is under discussion may bear no relationship to the eventual allocation made. I cannot go further than that at this stage.

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney asked me about responsibility for grants. The board will inherit from the Welsh Office some of the responsibility for making grants in support of the Welsh language under section 26 of the Development Board for Rural Wales Act 1991. It is envisaged that that will be a gradual inheritance to facilitate the smooth transfer to the Welsh Language Board of that important function. It is important that the Welsh Language Board learns to walk before it can run. With that in mind, the Welsh Office will for some time retain responsibility for the larger grants, including the Welsh Books Council, the National Eisteddfod, the Urdd and the Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin.

The amount of money available to assist Welsh language initiatives during this year was £2.8 million, of which £2.2 million was allocated to the larger organisations. That leaves £600,000 to be distributed among the smaller grant recipients for which the board will be in future responsible.

Mr. Morgan

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

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