§ Mr. RowlandsI beg to move amendment No. 10, in page 2, line 45, at end insert—
'(2B) The scheme referred to in subsection (1) above shall not include measures in connection with the broadcast programmes or scheduling policy of the British Broadcasting Corporation in Wales.'The amendment relates to a specific piece of information of which I was not aware in Committee—an interesting document that gives the response by the Welsh Language Board to the consultation document "The Future of the BBC" that was published by the Department of National Heritage in November 1992.In the submission by the Welsh Language Board, there are two statements which worried me. I have been consistently concerned about the degree to which the Welsh Language Board will interfere in issues for which 1203 other organisations and bodies are statutorily responsible. Those organisations may have their own accounting procedures and degree of accountability.
Paragraph 3.1 of the document says:
clearly the Welsh Language Board would see as one of its main responsibilities that the television service broadcast by S4C is properly protected from commercial and political pressures since it plays a vital part in both the strategic development and the promotion of language.Under what power is the Welsh Language Board seeking to intervene in an organisation that was set down in the House in statute with its own board and its own systems of accountability that go through to Ministers and to the House? What will be the function of the Welsh Language Board in that regard? Is that an agreed objective of the board and, dare I ask after today's discussions, has the Minister seen the document? If so, does he agree that that is a proper function in which the Welsh Language Board should get involved? That was in relation to S4C.Paragraph 3.5 contains a statement with regard to BBC Wales:
The Welsh Language Board is mindful of the danger of creating a ghetto for Welsh language broadcasting which would negate the aim of creating a bilingual society in Wales. It is for this reason that the Welsh Language Board considers the totality of the BBC's programme services in Wales are its concerns, de facto and its Welsh language is its concern de jure.What are we to make of that? The programming of BBC Wales, in both Welsh and English, is governed by its charter and its statutory responsibilities. It has its own advisory BBC council and, through that, its own chain of command and accountability through the procedures and structures laid down by the BBC. How will the Welsh Language Board establish both de facto and cle jure responsibility and supervision over BBC Wales programming?
§ Mr. Jonathan EvansI have seen that document and it worries me. The hon. Gentleman will have seen within the document that the view expressed by the Welsh Language Board is that the functions of the controller of BBC Wales may be changed also. He will have seen paragraph 4.5, which says:
The Welsh Language Board expects the future pattern of the BBC's services in Wales through the medium of the Welsh language to be incorporated in the scheme which the BBC as a public body will be required to submit to a new statutory Welsh Language Board under the terms of the Welsh Language Bill.I have read the Bill and I do not think that the BBC is one of the organisations covered by it. In the circumstances, what observations would the hon. Gentleman like to make about that?
§ Mr. RowlandsI had not yet reached the paragraph in question—I was working my way down—but as the hon. Gentleman has drawn the attention of the House to it, I should point out that it is an extremely sweeping and rather frightening statement.
Systems of control are laid down by charter, but this is an example of the WLB gaining the capacity to interfere with the fundamental responsibilities of an organisation established, in the case of the BBC by charter, and in the case of S4C by statute. The hon. Gentleman has therefore raised an important point.
As for how the BBC will get caught up by the scheme-making powers, I assume that clause 6(1)(o) 1204 means that the Secretary of State will announce that the BBC and S4C will be expected to produce relevant schemes. If so, such schemes should certainly not involve the pattern of BBC services. That pattern and accountability for it are laid down by charter, with a clear chain of command and responsibility. We have a BBC governing body in Wales and a BBC advisory board, so how in the name of heaven does the Welsh Language Board have a right to crawl over and scrutinise the BBC's services in Wales?
I hope that the Minister will not answer me with weasel words and that he will give me an unequivocal statement to the effect that he will not endorse the right of the WLB to get involved in matters that are properly covered elsewhere by charter and in statute. I am afraid that this is another example of the WLB becoming improperly involved in issues of public life in Wales which are already provided for in other ways.
§ Sir Wyn RobertsI have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's views. The views expressed by the Welsh Language Board in response to the Green Paper were those of the non-statutory board. Knowing the hon. Gentleman to be a reasonable man, I suggest that he has not, perhaps, paid enough attention to the requirement that the guidelines from which the schemes will result must be approved by the Secretary of State and must come before Parliament, when we are likely to have another opportunity of discussing the principles involved.
Of course, we would not expect the board to become involved in the detail of the BBC's scheduling policies. Including the BBC in the list of public bodies that may be required to produce schemes does not mean that the board will assume responsibility for the place of the Welsh language in the broadcasting system of Wales. The BBC's policies will remain a matter for it, determined under its charter and, after 1996, under its new charter. The board will not be able to interfere with the terms of the BBC's charter; nor will it be for the board to interfere with the BBC's obligation to provide 10 hours of programmes every week to S4C. The BBC does, however, fall into the class of bodies from which the board may require a scheme that illustrates how, in the context of its entire output, it gives effect to the principle of English and Welsh being dealt with on a basis of equality, when that is appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable. In proposing its scheme, the BBC will be able to reflect the complex nature of its responsibilities in Wales, which include its separate radio networks and television broadcast in English and Welsh.
Despite the importance and sensitivity of broadcasting, I am not persuaded that we would be justified in ruling out at this stage that the board should be excluded from that sector, but the detail of broadcasting policy will remain a matter for the BBC. It is worth underlining that it would not be the role of the board to express a view on any editorial matters. Schemes will be solely concerned with the principle of English and Welsh being dealt with on a basis of equality. To deny the board any role in that sector would be to deny the importance of broadcasting in the Government's overall policy of support for the language.
I suspect that we are all agreed on the influence that broadcasting, and television broadcasting in particular, has on any language, be it Welsh or English. Therefore, it seems only sensible that broadcasting should be included within the board's remit. I am confident that it is a task 1205 that the board will discharge effectively, and in a way that builds on the excellent contribution that Welsh language broadcasting already makes to the well-being of the Welsh language.
In that sector, as in so many others, the board will have to be sensitive and have regard and respect also for the other contractual or statutory obligations that apply to those bodies with whom it deals.
§ Mr. RowlandsI listened with great care and interest to the Minister's considered statement. I hope that the new Welsh Language Board will hear the message that we want to send out from the House, that if it treads in those sectors, it should do so warily.
As we shall have the chance to consider the guidelines when they emerge, it must be made clear to the board that such guidelines should avoid the worries and concerns that I have expressed, which arise from the language used in the consultation document or in the submission by the old Welsh Language Board. If it heeds that lesson, I hope that such a problem will not occur. However, we should give the new Welsh Language Board more than a gentle warning that if it intrudes into issues of the kind that we have raised—the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Evans) shares my queasiness—a big row will ensue. I hope that the new board will heed that message. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.