§ Mr. Norman Hogg (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is with regret that I raise this serious point of order with you. It involves the hon. Members for Dover (Mr. Shaw) and for Colne Valley (Mr. Riddick) as well as a Minister of the Crown, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart).
At a succession of Scottish Question Times, matters have been raised concerning Monklands district council. They have been raised mainly by the hon. Member for Dover, whom we can disregard because he is held in contempt on both sides of the House.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but he must not paint a picturesque story. He must come to his point of order, with which I can then deal.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. Will the hon. Gentleman now come to the point of order that he is putting to me, as Speaker of this House?
§ Mr. HoggThe hon. Member for Dover and, this afternoon, the hon. Member for Colne Valley have made allegations of corruption against an individual in Monklands district council and against that authority. When the matter was initially raised by the hon. Member for Dover, the Secretary of State answered in general terms, saying that he had powers in statute permitting him to pursue any corruption that arose in any Scottish local authority.
This afternoon, that unsubstantiated allegation was used in an attempted smear against my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke). Conservative Back Benchers have made a deliberate and contemptible attempt to implicate them in an alleged corruption. As the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Scottish Office have not identified that corruption or acted on their statutory powers, it is obvious that that corruption does not exist. If it exists, the Secretary of State must act on it. Instead, the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Eastwood, joined in that smearing ploy and behaved in a fashion that is inconsistent with what the Scottish people expect of a Minister.
If allegations of corruption are to be made in this House, and if attempts are to be made to smear a Privy Councillor—the Leader of the Opposition—and the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, we are entitled to believe that those matters will be properly looked into. However, if the Secretary of State will not do that—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. George Galloway (Glasgow, Hillhead)Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker.
§ Madam SpeakerIs it on the same matter?
§ Mr. GallowayYes, Madam Speaker. It deals with the associated question on the Order Paper tabled by the hon. Member for Colne Valley in which he explicitly uses the words
corruption in local government in ScotlandIn the House—on the Order Paper—I too have accused someone of being corrupt. That was the late Robert Maxwell—I was ahead of the pack in doing so before he died—and he was indeed corrupt, as the world now knows. The difference is—[Hots. MEMBERS: "Did you receive any of his money?"] No, I never received any of his money.The difference is that I was ready to, and did, repeat my allegations outside the privilege of the House. The record will show in the morning that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Riddick) referred to "dubious business deals" with his own council by the leader of the Monklands district authority—whom I do not know and have never met.
I do know, however, that that person is currently involved in litigation against at least one newspaper, which also made that allegation. The matter is sub judice, yet the allegation was casually repeated by the hon. Member for Colne Valley, both on the Order Paper and in his question.
There must be a role for you, Madam Speaker, in preventing Scottish Question Time from being used as a subterfuge to smear leading Members of the House of Commons and elected local authority members—against whom, as far as I know, the police have raised no complaint, and whose activities are not the subject of any legal action by the authorities who have the power to prosecute in the case of any impropriety. For a Minister to the Crown to be associated today, for the first time, with that smear is an absolute scandal, a disgrace and an abuse of the privileges of the House.
§ Mr. Graham Riddick (Colne Valley)On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)Pay your debts.
§ Mr. RiddickHave you passed your driving test yet?
The hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mr. Hogg) accused me of accusing the Leader of the Opposition of corruption—[Hon. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, he did; the Official Report will show that.
I must make it clear that not once in my question did I accuse the Leader of the Opposition of corruption. I did, however, express a desire for him to make some comment about the corruption that has taken place in Monklands district council.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. Does the hon. Gentleman's point of order relate to this matter? I think that I can now deal with it. We have heard enough points of order; we are all aware of the problem.
§ Mr. MartinOn a point of order, Madam Speaker. As you know, I am a regular attender at Scottish Question Time.
§ Madam SpeakerSo am I.
§ Mr. MartinI regularly hear, particularly from the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw), accusations concerning a local authority. Many of the people in that local authority are decent. hard-working people who do not have an opportunity to reply to allegations made in the House.
333 Would it not be better, and bring matters to a head, if you, Madam Speaker, were to advise the hon. Member for Dover to repeat the accusations outside the House? That would give the people of Monklands an opportunity to take the hon. Gentleman through the due legal process.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I have heard enough, and I think I can deal with the matter. As the House knows, I rule out of order at the time anything I hear that is out of order. I heard nothing that was out of order during Question Time, otherwise I would have taken action. I do, however, caution hon. Members that moderation is a characteristic of parliamentary language, and I must confess that I have not heard much moderation this afternoon. I ask all hon. Members to remember in future what "Erskine May" says about good temper and moderation being the characteristics of parliamentary language.
The sub judice rule, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway), applies only if a case has been set down for hearing. I do not think that that has happened in this case.
We are now in July, and I remind all hon. Members that moderation and tolerance are what we require.
§ Mr. Gordon McMaster (Paisley, South)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Scottish Question Time today was dominated by two topics: the reform of local government in Scotland, and water privatisation. When we asked questions about local government reform we were told to wait and see. Over a week ago there was a leak to a Scottish newspaper and the story has been running in Scotland for that time. When we asked questions about water privatisation we were also told to wait to see, but a NatWest securities publication suggests that there has been another leak from the Scottish Office.
Will you, Madam Speaker, rule on the increasingly common Scottish Office practice of making statements outside the House and not having the courtesy to -make them in the House? It is treating the House with contempt.
§ Madam SpeakerThe entire House knows that I feel that when any Department has a statement to make on a change of policy the House should be told in the first place.