HC Deb 24 February 1993 vol 219 cc875-6
11. Mr. Bellingham

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent steps he has taken to eradicate fraud and corruption in local authorities.

Mr. Redwood

Prevention of fraud is the responsibility of individual local authorities and a matter for the auditor and, where the system has failed, for the police. The Government have duties and powers to enforce proper procedures for compulsory competitive tendering and my right hon. and learned Friend will not hesitate to use those powers where necessary.

Mr. Bellingham

Why is it that, with one or two exceptions, the overwhelming majority of fraud and corruption in local government is taking place in Labour councils? [Interruption.] The Opposition do not like it because I have touched a raw nerve. Does the Minister of State agree that if Labour councillors carry on like this, many of them will lose their seats at the next local elections?

Mr. Redwood

It is certainly true that there is financial difficulty in many Labour authorities and financial difficulty and looseness can lead to worse things. If that occurs, it is important that it is thoroughly investigated and stamped out and, as my hon. Friend said, it is in the interests of the Opposition to make sure that that happens.

Ms. Hoey

Will the Minister condemn the extraordinary antics in Lambeth council last night when Conservative councillors worked with Labour councillors who had been expelled and who are no longer Labour councillors to reject a motion that would have dissolved the direct services organisation? Why are Conservative councillors in Lambeth so complacent about the huge financial irregularities that have been found there? Did the Conservative councillors who voted last night do so on his instructions, or are they out of step with the party line?

Mr. Redwood

Everyone knows that Labour is in control, or is trying to be in control, of Lambeth. That is just a red herring. Of course, Conservative councillors in Lambeth are not under my instructions—I trust that there is free democratic debate in that council—and they do not come to Ministers for any idea of what they should be doing.

Mr. Bowis

Is not it a corrupt practice for elected councillors to set a community charge and then not pay it themselves? Does my hon. Friend agree that one reason for the great sense of outrage in the London borough of Lambeth is that councillors have done precisely that—and none of those councillors is Conservative? Is not it about time that a law was brought before the House to establish that any such non-payment is attached to the over-inflated expenses earnings of those same councillors?

Mr. Redwood

My hon. Friend is quite right. It is a scandal if councillors owe money to their council, collect their expenses and then say that they will not pay on principle, just as it was a scandal when some Opposition Members did not think that they should pay those charges. I am glad that that period is passing into our history books and I trust that they will all be paying their council taxes.

Mr. Straw

Will the Minister confirm that in an answer to the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Bellingham) he said that reported fraud in 1991–92 in all 400 local authorities amounted to just £3.5 million? Is he aware that that represents one sixtieth of the £230 million of fraud and serious mismanagement reported in central Government Departments and quangos such as health authorities, which are packed with Conservative party appointees? Do not those figures show that the unelected, quango state which the Tory party has created is also the unaccountable and corruptible state?

Mr. Redwood

A penny of fraud is a penny too much and the sums that the hon. Gentleman mentioned are large by most people's standards. He may find £3 million very little, but I think that it is a lot of money. Perhaps he should see what £3 million looks like; if it were piled up in the Chamber it would take up quite a lot of room. The problem is that much bigger sums are under suspicion or under investigation. The public wants to know what has gone on in those councils and the sooner the air is cleared the better.