HC Deb 22 February 1993 vol 219 cc674-6
30. Mr. Bayley

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission by how much the National Audit Office has increased in real terms the resources devoted to measuring the outcomes achieved by Government services.

Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission)

In the five year s to 31 March 1993, the National Audit Office will have increased the number of value-for-money studies produced by some 50 per cent., from 33 to 50. Over the same period, the resources devoted to that work have risen in real terms by 45 per cent.

Mr. Bayley

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. However, I am talking not just about value for money or efficiency but about effectiveness. As Government policy is moving towards an audit of policy in terms of quality and not just quantity of service provided, should we not be looking at the effectiveness of surgeons' operations in the national health service-that is, whether they make people better—rather than just the number of operations? Does the National Audit Office have sufficient resources to carry out such outcome studies on effectiveness as well as efficiency?

Sir Peter Hordern

The Comptroller and Auditor General has frequently reported on the health service and, as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) will bear out, the reports are concerned with the quality of service. The reports on the NHS from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health frequently produce tests of quality—the number of patients dealt with, and so on—so the reports from the National Audit Office are pretty good.

31. Mr. Ian Bruce

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what plans there are to increase the resources of the National Audit Office.

Sir Peter Hordern

The National Audit Office corporate plan for 1993–94 to 1997–98, which was approved by the Commission in July 1992, shows an increase in gross cash resources from £44.6 million to £47.4 million over the next five years. The office also plans to increase its output over the period, mainly as a result of auditing a further 60 accounts following the creation of new next steps agencies.

Mr. Bruce

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer, but could he give the House some sign as to whether the Commission has looked into the latent studies that the National Audit Office could be making? In particular, could he look at the studies being done into defence spending, as I believe that a large number of capital projects approved in the past have not been good value for money?

Sir Peter Hordern

I am tempted to go down that road, but, as the House knows, the Public Accounts Commission is the paymaster of the National Audit Office and matters of content are for the Public Accounts Committee. However, as the Chairman of that Committee will bear out, the National Audit Office has frequently done good research and reports on defence studies, including those into capital projects by the Ministry of Defence.

Mr. Skinner

I wonder whether the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee are also looking into Ministers' perks. Will they be examining, for instance, the Minister of Agriculture's pond, which cost the taxpayer about 4,700 quid? Then things moved on to the security fence. It seems to me that he is building up a farm. Are there any cattle involved, or is a horse-racing stud being built? I should like to know—and I should like to think that the Minister will be paying the bill.

Sir Peter Hordern

I am sure that the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General will be drawn to what the hon. Gentleman has said. As to whether the Public Accounts Commission will be examining this matter among the many that it has to study already, I do not really know.

32. Mr. Austin Mitchell

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what proportion of the NAO's current budget is allocated to value-for-money audits.

Sir Peter Hordern

The National Audit Office allocated 56 per cent. of its budget for audit work for value-for-money activities in 1992–93.

Mr. Mitchell

Will consideration be given to more financing for the National Audit Office for value-for-money audits so that we can examine the Government's estimates of the cost of their legislation, such as the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill? The estimated costs of that measure have more than doubled since it was introduced to the House.

Sir Peter Hordern

That may well be a matter for the Public Accounts Committee to investigate. I understand that the Comptroller and Auditor General is studying the hon. Gentleman's letter and that the hon. Gentleman will be receiving a reply quite shortly.