REMOVAL OF PROHIBITION ON THE USE OF PREMISES FOR THE DELIVERY OF FOOTBALL POOLS COUPONS AND STAKES (Hansard, 28 April 1993)

§ Mr. Pendry
I beg to move amendment No. 16, in page 20, line 32, leave out from first 'competition' to end of line 36 and insert `, in relation to a registered pool promoter, means a competition which is of the same kind as or is broadly similar to a competition held by him before the passing of this Act.'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 173 and 174.

§ Mr. Pendry
It would be churlish of me not to recognise that the Government have come a long way in accommodating the concerns about the sale of pools coupons in shops. Although we fully support the spirit of clause 50 as amended in Committee, we have several concerns about its definition of a qualifying competition, especially the definition in new subsection (4D) (a) of section 1 of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963: a competition for prizes for making forecasts as to association football games played on a Saturday". We realise that the Government's new amendments Nos. 173 and 174 make that definition a little broader, so that instead of being limited to football matches played on a Saturday, it will include games played on Sundays and bank holidays. That is a good step forward, but in our view it does not go far enough. Amendments Nos. 173 and 174 do not solve the problem of pools competitions based on events other than football matches, such as major horse races and cricket matches, which now commonly appear on coupons.
It is important that the pools companies are permitted to run their businesses as efficiently as possible, with the minimum of bureaucratic restraints and obstacles. I am sure that the Government would tell us that that is in line with Government policy. It is absurd, therefore, that the companies will be allowed to sell in shops only coupons that use only football matches, whereas on coupons that are sold door-to-door, they will be allowed to use a number of different sports. The ludicrous position would be created whereby the pools companies were forced to issue two types of coupon. The first would be for sale in shops and would relate only to football matches and the second would cover the rest of their business.
My hon. Friends and I can see no reason why the Government would wish to introduce such a petty and 1103 needless restriction. It is already established practice to run pools competitions on sporting events other than football. The Minister surely cannot argue that the use of other sports on coupons from shops would be socially damaging or would lead to unnecessary stimulation in gambling. Perhaps he could enlighten us about the reasoning behind this curious measure.
The amendment is a simple method by which to maintain the status quo and to avoid all the problems implied by the needlessly restrictive new subsection (4D). It uses wording similar to that contained in the British Telecommunications Act 1981 when it was necessary to ensure the legality of the collection service in the context of the Post Office letters monopoly. I hope that the Minister has taken that point on board and that he will give me a constructive reply.

§ Mr. Peter Lloyd
The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) raised several points. The speediest way in which I can deal with them is, before responding to the amendment, to say something about Government amendments Nos. 173 and 174 which deal with several of the points he raised. The Government amendments make modest changes to the definition of a qualifying competition in clause 50. Clause 50, which was added to the Bill in the Committee, allows pools coupons and stakes to be collected in retail outlets. The clause is carefully drafted to confine the concession to the present weekly, long-odds football pools competition. The definition of a "qualifying competition" seeks to encapsulate the key features of such competitions.
The reason for restricting the concession is simple. It is to preserve the existing framework whereby only socially harmless forms of low-stake, long-odds gambling, such as the football pools and lotteries, are available in ordinary retail outlets while harder forms of gambling continue to be confined to dedicated, licensed premises, such as betting offices, where they can be better supervised.
In Committee, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) pointed out that the definition of a qualifying competition would cause pools companies one or two difficulties. The definition refers to a competition for prizes for making forecasts as to association football games played on a Saturday". It was put to us that the pools companies were finding it increasingly difficult to obtain 58 first-class fixtures played on a Saturday and were having to resort to using minor league matches. We are told that including such matches on the pools coupon has a depressing effect on turnover. A further difficulty with the definition is that it would prevent coupons from being collected in shops during the Christmas week when the matches contained on the coupons were, in years where Christmas fell on a Saturday, played on a bank holiday Monday or Tuesday.
A final problem arises in relation to the reference to games played. It is not uncommon for matches to be postponed, perhaps because of bad weather—a point made by the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde—and for the results to be determined by the pools panel. I accept those points and would accommodate the first two by including football games played on a Sunday or bank holiday and the third by referring to games to be played.
In Committee, the hon. Member for Erdington raised a more fundamental objection to the definition of a qualifying competition. With the amendment, the hon. 1104 Member for Stalybridge and Hyde returns to the fray on the issue. Occasionally the pools companies run competitions on other sports. The Littlewoods coupons for 3 April included a pools competition on the Grand National. I do not know whether there was a box for the false starts. I understand that Littlewoods, Vernons and Zetters also run occasional pools on other horse races, and on cricket and snooker matches.
The entry form for those other pools competitions is printed on the reverse side of the weekly football pools coupon. Under the provisions of clause 50, such coupons could not be collected in retail outlets. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde argues that that would be unreasonable. Although superficially I can see why he says that, I do not agree with him. The retail outlet concession is deliberately confined to football pools because of their special character. To allow pool betting on other sports to take place in newsagents and other shops could potentially turn them into unlicensed unregulated betting offices. A whole range of other pool competitions could be brought in by a whole range of other promoters. Some hon. Members may be very relaxed about that, but I believe that many others remain to be persuaded that the system of dedicated licensed premises for betting has had its day.
1 am
Our debate in Committee has affected the proposal made by the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde, who has sought to narrow the effect of the measure. I see exactly what he seeks to do, and if I could find a way of achieving his objective, I would be tempted to do so. I fear, however, that in attempting to solve one problem, he has created another in its place—as I think one always must if one seeks to draft a narrow amendment in this area.
Although the amendment would allow Littlewoods, Vernons and Zetters to market their existing cricket, snooker and horse-racing competitions, which form a small part of their activities, it would also create a closed market. Anyone setting up as a pool promoter following the enactment of the Bill would not benefit from clause 50 and so could not engage shops to collect his pools coupons.
I have no doubt that the existing pools companies would welcome such statutory protection from competition, and the Opposition may feel comfortable putting their names to such an amendment, but it is too anti-competition and too weighted against any newcomer for the Government to be able to commend it to the House. I hope that the House will not adopt the

§ Mr. George Howarth
The Minister appears to accept the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) sought to make on behalf of the pools companies about this narrow aspect of business, in respect of which forms are often included on the reverse side of existing coupons.
The Minister may be right to say that the amendment has a wider compass than my hon. Friend intended. But the hon. Gentleman said that if he thought that he could achieve the original intention of the amendment, he would be willing to do so. Would he be willing, before the Bill goes to the other place, to look again to see whether he can draft a provision that would achieve what my hon. Friend suggested, rather than having the wider implications which he says the amendment has?

§ Mr. Lloyd
I have examined the matter carefully since the Committee stage. I do not think that it is possible to amend the Bill in this way without opening up the possibility of large-scale pool betting on all sorts of activities from all sorts of promoters in unlicensed outlets. I shall certainly think again, and if the hon. Member for Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth) can come up with a foolproof form of words, I shall be interested to see it and shall think seriously about suggesting to my colleagues that it should be introduced in the other place.

§ Mr. Pendry
Let me reiterate what my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North has said. We have heard a lot about the fact that there will be a year to think things through. I shall not go as far as my hon. Friend in suggesting that something could be done before the Bill goes to the other place, but perhaps during that year a few heads could be knocked together so that words that would be acceptable to the Government can be formulated. With those words of wisdom, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.