Pensions (Hansard, 26 April 1993)

§ 5. Mr. Brandreth
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the current state pension age in (a) Sweden and (b) the United Kingdom.

§ Miss. Widdecombe
A rise in state pension age in Sweden, to 66 from the current 65 for both men and women, will be phased in rapidly by 1998. State pension age in the United Kingdom is currently 65 for men and 60 for women.

§ Mr. Brandreth
I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will she confirm that the position in Sweden is typical of that in most European countries? Does she agree that for 715 the United Kingdom to fall into line we would be well advised to equalise pension ages in this country over a period of time?

§ Miss Widdecombe
As I said in reply to an earlier question, many countries in Europe are now following the path of either raising the state pension age or examining their pension system. I cannot say what our final decision will be on this score, but I will, as my hon. Friend suggests, take into account both European and world trends in reaching it.

§ Mr. Skinner
Will the Minister confirm that about two months ago I sent her a couple of letters from constituents of mine? Both letters were from women who were in work. To the one who had a year left to work, the reply was, "Don't worry—we will not introduce a 65 or 67 retiring age for women". To the one who had four years left to work, the answer was a little more ambiguous. It is fairly clear that it is part of the Government's agenda to raise the retirement age for women to either 65 or 67. That is a scandal at a time when the Government are spending £27 billion to keep 3 million people out of work, and they have just handed back more than £20 billion to the richest I per cent. of tax payers. Instead of attacking pensioners, they should be attacking the wealthy in Britain. What does the Minister have against women?

§ Miss Widdecombe
Unfortunately for the hon. Gentleman, my memory of the two letters in question is good. To the first lady, I said that she could be completely reassured; to the second lady, I also said that she could be reassured. Therefore, I did not make any difference between the two ladies.
As for what I have against women, the answer is nothing at all: I want to see them well protected and well looked after, which is why I am so happy that more women than ever before are taking advantage of occupational pensions and thus advancing their situation in retirement. If the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) wants to quote letters to his constituents from me, I suggest that he reads them first.

§ 6. Mr. Ian Taylor
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what comparative study has been made of the principal factors underlying the setting of the level of pensions in EC countries.

§ Miss. Widdecombe
A number of studies comparing levels of pensions in EC countries have been carried out. One recent comparative exercise based on data provided by Watsons independent actuaries looked at the incomes of pensioners in six EC countries. It is available in the Library.

§ Mr. Taylor
Is my hon. Friend aware that the United Kingdom spends 8.4 per cent. of gross domestic product on pensions, which is third in the European Community, beaten only by Denmark and France? Given that the cost of living in the United Kingdom compares favourably with those countries, pensioners here do very well. Will my hon. Friend go further and examine closely the trends in the Community? Earnings-related pensions paid by the state do not make sense, given that they penalise those on the lowest earnings. What we need in the Community are portable pensions, occupational pensions and more encouragement to the private sector to help individuals to 716 protect themselves, given the burden that will depend heavily on those of working age with the demographic trend and the increase in the number of people over 80.

§ Miss. Widdecombe
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am becoming tired of wholly fallacious comparisons between pensions in the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe which take no account of the fact that in some countries the pensions are earnings related and not basic pensions at all and that many citizens in those countries are drawing a pension below the figures quoted.
I am also always amazed that the figures quoted are at exchange rates, rather than taking into account the cost of living. For example, I often hear about the wonderful pensions in Denmark and Sweden, completely ignoring the fact that people have to be 67 and 66 to get them and that the basket of goods costs 40 per cent. more and 55 per cent. more respectively.

§ Mr. Redmond
Will the Minister have urgent discussions with the President of the Board of Trade in view of the underlying threat to pensions if she allows him to get away with putting his sticky fingers on the pension funds, which would have grave implications for her Department?

§ Miss Widdecombe
The President of the Board of Trade has his sticky fingers on nothing whatever. There is no proposal that would mean that pensioners in pension funds transferring from the public to the private sector would not have their interests fully taken care of. That has been made clear by a number of Departments involved. Once again, I must say with regret—as I said earlier to the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick)—that the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond) is scaremongering and the people whom he is frightening are vulnerable.