HC Deb 15 April 1993 vol 222 cc943-4
12. Mr. Steen

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of the workings of the unit fine system; and if he will consider proposals for change.

Mr. Jack

We are monitoring the operation of the unit fine scheme carefully. We are taking very seriously concerns expressed about the working of the system in certain cases, and are considering how these concerns can best be met.

Mr. Steen

I wonder whether the Minister has heard the story of the little 83-year-old lady who lives on her own in south Devon and who inadvertently forgot to renew her television licence. She was fined £800 and eight units, because she had a disposable income of more than £5,000 a year. In the same court, a younger woman who committed exactly the same offence and who had a disposable income of under £5,000 a year was fined eight units and only £32. While Conservative Members are entirely for change for the better, we are opposed to change for change's sake. Can the Minister tell the House today that he will make some improvement that is more equitable, which Conservative Members will support entirely?

Mr. Jack

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution to the debate on how we might study and improve the operation of the unifying scheme. He was kind enough to bring to the Home Office some of his local magistrates who made a singular and helpful contribution to our discussions. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), magistrates make the decision in assessing the value of units; it is a judicial decision. If there is information that they wish to question, they have the right so to do.

Mr. Roy Hughes

Why does not the Minister recognise the depth of feeling among magistrates about the unit system? It is undermining the discretion of local justices and leading to absurd fines. Recently in Gwent, a young unemployed youth was fined more than £1,000 for dropping a crisp packet. Although we may condemn litter louts, that seems a bit out of proportion and brings the whole system into disrepute.

Mr. Jack

On 4 May, we shall meet the Magistrates Association which will give it an opportunity to join in our work. The case that the hon. Gentleman mentioned resulted from somebody not filling in the means inquiry form. In those circumstances, an individual, under present arrangements, can go back to the court and ask for the matter to be reconsidered.