§ 5. Mr. LlwydTo ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his Department's latest estimate of the number of people on local authority waiting lists for rented housing; and what is his planning figure for the number of new public sector rented housing units which will become available next year.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones)Information on local authority waiting lists is not available centrally. Decisions on resources to local authorities following last week's autumn statement, will be announced shortly.
§ Mr. LlwydIn view of the large amount of informed opposition to Tai Cymru's recent discussion document, does the Minister agree that the proposal in it—that there should be housing on a development scale of 50 to 200 units, centred in four or five geographical areas of Wales—is utterly unsuited to the needs of rural Wales? Does he further agree that it flies in the face of the purpose of setting up Tai Cymru, which it was said was for local and sensitive development? Finally, does he agree that it would be far preferable to purchase existing housing stock and to refurbish rather than to build?
§ Mr. JonesTai Cymru's consultative process finished on 31 October. I hope that the hon. Gentleman took the opportunity to submit his comments. I know that Tai Cymru is keeping an open mind and will consider fully all representations made to it, as I am keeping an open mind on the matter. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to announce last week a further £38 million to be spent before the end of this financial year and I look forward to that adding about 1,000 new homes for rent in Wales.
§ Mr. Roger EvansOn waiting lists, can my right hon. Friend explain the other side of the issue and tell us how far Welsh housing stock has increased in recent times?
§ Mr. JonesI am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that Housing for Wales and the housing associations have been making superb progress. This year more than 4,000 new homes will be added to the stock, which is a tremendous step forward by Housing for Wales.
§ Mr. KinnockIs not it plain that last Thursday's statement was, in respect of housebuilding, both incompetent and misleading? Is not it obvious that if local authorities must depend on additional sales to generate funds for new building in the middle of a housing slump, new building is unlikely to take place? Would not it have been much better, for the sake of the slump-hit construction industry as well as to meet housing needs in Wales, if the Chancellor had allowed local authorities properly to release their capital assets so that we could get on with some real building?
§ Mr. JonesI feel that I may be in a unique position in trying to answer a question from the right hon. Gentleman. I am not sure whether he has previously asked a question since he returned to the Back Benches. I fear that he may have missed the point because the £38 million is to provide some 1,000 new homes. It is extra money provided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the matter forward. The point that he misses about past capital receipts is that all of that money, except that allowed by special dispensation, has been used permanently or temporarily to offset debts that have already been run up.
§ Mr. MurphyIf the Minister is unwilling to say how many people in Wales are waiting for council houses, may I be permitted to tell the House that between 80,000 and 90,000 people in the whole of the Principality are on council house waiting lists? If capital receipts in the next 13 months are to be used to try to build new houses at a time when it is unlikely that people will want to sell them in any event, what logic is there that nearly £600 million-worth of capital receipts, which are still tied up in our local authority coffers, cannot be used? Is not the Minister's suggestion a crazy nonsense?
§ Mr. JonesNo. The crazy nonsense is the fallacy to which the hon. Gentleman still clings. Except for the dispensation already allowed for, housing receipts have been used temporarily or permanently to offset the debt that has already been run up. Even after allowing for all redemption, Welsh local councils still have a debt of some £1 billion, which must be paid for by the people of Wales.