National Audit Office (Hansard, 9 November 1992)

§ 24. Mr. Denham
To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission if he will make a statement on the recruitment of information technology specialists by the NAO.

§ Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission)
The recruitment of staff to meet the needs of the National Audit Office is a matter for the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Comptroller and Auditor General has, however, told me that he does not normally consider it the most efficient way of organising its resources to recruit information technology specialists for permanent retention on his staff.

§ Mr. Denham
Does the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission share my concern at the apparently endless string of computer purchase scandals in the national health service, including the £43 million recently wasted by the Wessex regional health authority, the Healthtrac computer system in the west midlands, and now the London ambulance service computer breakdown? Does he accept that all those computer scandals first came to light not by means of national health service internal audits or Government Department audits but by means of media attention? Will he therefore discuss with the National Audit Office and the Comptroller and Auditor General the desirability of establishing a specialist team to examine national health service computer services until we can all be satisfied that the money is being used effectively and efficiently and not wasted, as it appears to be at the moment?

§ Sir Peter Hordern
I am not sure about the origin of the reports, but I know that in 1990 the National Audit Office carried out an examination of managing computer projects in the national health service and that the matter was followed up by the Public Accounts Committee. Furthermore, I know that the National Audit Office will examine the matter again if the PAC thinks it right. The 617 National Audit Office and the Comptroller and Auditor General recruit specialist information technology experts as and when necessary.

§ 25. Dr. Wright
To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission if he will review the number of value-for-money audits undertaken annually by the National Audit Office.

§ Sir Peter Hordern
The Public Accounts Commission reviews annually the corporate plan of the National Audit Office, which shows the balance of activities and expenditure expected over the future five-year period. After considering the latest corporate plan in July, the commission endorsed the National Audit Office's proposal to undertake 50 value-for-money audits in 1993–94.

§ Dr. Wright
Why does the chairman of the Public Accounts Commission think that approximately 50 value-for-money audits per year by the National Audit Office is considered, in the NAO's words, "an appropriate level" when there are volumes and varieties of work available to be done which is not at present undertaken? The National Audit Office has no access to the Civil List or to the security services. It has done no work on opted-out schools or on NHS trusts. It has done very little work on the proliferation of executive agencies, and increasing volumes of its work are being privatised and contracted out. Given the volume of work that there is to be done, why are a mere 50 value-for-money audits per year thought to be sufficient?

§ Sir Peter Hordern
The number has increased from 33 five years ago to 50 now. The Public Accounts Commission, on the advice of the Public Accounts Committee, believes that that is the appropriate number. It is partly a question of staff and resources. The hon. Gentleman raised a number of matters that the Comptroller and Auditor General would not in any event investigate. It is a matter of balance, but the commission believes that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the National Audit Office have it about right. If the hon. Gentleman believes that there are particular areas which the Comptroller and Auditor General should investigate, I have no doubt that he will let them know and I shall see to it that the Comptroller and Auditor General hears about the hon. Gentleman's request.

§ Mr. Ian Bruce
Has my hon. Friend's Committee dealt with Ministry of Defence relocation projects? It appears that much public money—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I regret that the hon. Gentleman's question is not in order. If he can relate it more directly to Question 25, of course I shall hear him.

§ Mr. Bruce
I thank you, Madam Speaker, for your help. I was specifically asking my hon. Friend about value-for-money audits, because if a Department tries to make savings by relocating staff such audits must ensure that savings proposed in studies are achieved.

§ Sir Peter Hordern
The Comptroller and Auditor General frequently makes findings about the Ministry of Defence, especially on housing and relocation matters, but I will ensure that my hon. Friend's remarks are brought to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General.