HC Deb 13 May 1992 vol 207 cc603-5
3. Dr. Strang

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the steps which are being taken to protect the ozone layer; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister for the Environment and Countryside (Mr. David Maclean)

We are co-chairing the official negotiations on the ozone layer and hope to achieve agreement on phasing out CFCs and halons four years earlier than the Montreal protocol. I shall keep the House informed of progress.

Dr. Strang

Does the Minister now accept that hydrochlorofluorocarbons pose a greater threat to the ozone layer than was originally thought and that therefore they are no longer acceptable as an additional substitute for the ozone-depleting substances covered by the Montreal protocol? Will the Government now announce a deadline for phasing out HCFCs also?

Mr. Maclean

I accept that HCFCs have some ozone-depleting potential, but they are one twentieth as harmful as CFCs. Of course we want HCFCs to be phased out in the long term, but if we make a unilateral or premature announcement to phase out HCFCs, we shall end up with CFCs being used for longer than they ought to be. Of course we want some of the new super-chemicals that are being developed, but HCFCs have an interim role to play until we reach that ideal state.

Mr. Robert B. Jones

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most encouraging breakthroughs recently has been the United States' change of heart regarding the convention on climate change? Will he pass on to our right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State our congratulations on the important role that he played in making sure that the United States changed its view?

Mr. Maclean

I should be delighted to congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on the role that he played. Most sensible commentators clearly recognise that any attempt to have a Rio agreement without the United States on board would be doomed to failure. The United States contributes 30 per cent. of CO2 emissions. It was vital to get the United States to go to the convention, so I am delighted that that country will now play a full and key part.

Mr. Beggs

One welcomes the steps that the Government have taken to protect the ozone layer, but can the Minister tell us whether the health of the public at large will be protected as much as it ought to be by that action, given that risk compared with the risk caused by pollution from Sellafield and other radioactive sources?

Mr. Maclean

The hon. Gentleman will know that very strict pollution controls are imposed at Sellafield. It has to operate within very tight constraints on discharges. I am absolutely confident that if one looks at any scale of risk—whether from the ozone layer or from radioactivity—those discharges are very low down in the categories of things that actually harm the public.

Mrs. Gorman

Is my hon. Friend aware that one good volcanic outburst shoots more so-called aerosol gases into the stratosphere than all the industrial production since the beginning of the industrial revolution? Is he aware that the National Aeronautics and Space Administration recently produced a report casting doubt on the concept of ozone holes? Is he further aware that the former director of the Atomic Energy Commission in the United States, Dixy Lee Ray, has written a book casting doubt on the idea that stopping spraying our armpits with aerosols will save the planet?

Mr. Maclean

In the few years that I have been answering from the Dispatch Box, I have always received useful information from my hon. Friend. I was not aware of the first point, but I have no proposals to control volcanic emissions. I was aware of the second point. I was not aware of the third point, but, again, I intend to continue to use certain deodorants.

Mr. Win Griffiths

The Minister is in no danger of being premature. The latest announcement on CFCs was made only when industry and the President of America took the lead. The evidence about HCFCs is so strong that the Government should now act to ensure that their production is banned as soon as possible. Will not the Minister at least give a commitment that the Government are prepared to talk to industry about doing so?

Mr. Maclean

The whole House would have regarded it as less churlish of the hon. Gentleman if he had paid a fulsome tribute to my predecessor, David Trippier who took the initiative on CFCs. He decided to call for an earlier phase-out of CFCs. He put it on the European agenda. We are now discussing an earlier phase-out of CFCs and halons because of David Trippier's action. We are very grateful to him for that.