Local Government (Hansard, 11 May 1992)

§ 2. Mr. Denzil Davies
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for the reorganisation of local government in Wales.

§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt)
May I warmly endorse my right hon. Friend's welcome to you, Madam Speaker, in the Chair for Welsh Question Time?
I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the statement that I made in the House on 3 March. The proposals that I outlined then are now the subject of consultation.

§ Mr. Davies
Could the Secretary of State be less coy, as the Queen's speech mentioned no legislation on the reorganisation of local government? Does the Secretary of State intend in this Session to legislate on the proposals that he has just put forward?

§ Mr. Hunt
The right hon. Gentleman should refer to the statement that I made to the House. He will see that the next step is the publication of a White Paper later this year, and legislation will then follow. [Hon. Members: "When?"] As soon as possible. Obviously, in the meantime, there must be continuing consultations with local authority associations. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman can persuade his party to come forward with some positive proposals in reaction to my statement.

§ Mr. Dover
Does my right hon. Friend accept that many hon. Members in England will be carefully watching his decision-making and that they fully endorse his belief that unitary local authorities are the best? We shall be watching particularly the effect on education in our areas.

§ Mr. Hunt
Yes. I am glad that my hon. Friend has given me the opportunity to point out once again that the impetus behind unitary authorities for Wales has come from the local authority associations, which presented a united front in seeking unitary status. That has not been the case in England, which gives Wales an unprecedented opportunity to lead the way in local government reform.

§ Mr. Barry Jones
We welcome you to the the Chair, Madam Speaker. The House has not been noted in the past for equal opportunities, and a great example has been set.
Will county elections take place next year? Councils are now utterly in the dark. Has not the Secretary of State had difficulties, having lost the battle with the Secretary of State for the Environment? We need separate Welsh legislation, and we should not be dependent on England. The Secretary of State is entitled to tell us today that he is not linked to an English timetable. Does he understand that we believe that years of uncertainty now lie ahead and, due to his action, local authorities are in chaos?

§ Mr. Hunt
Unfortunately, most of what the hon. Gentleman says is based on a series of misunderstandings and misrepresentations. To set the record straight, Wales is on course for separate Welsh legislation preceded by a White Paper. The timetable dates that I outlined before the general election still stand. We are well on course to achieve new unitary authorities in shadow form in 1994, which should be fully operational by 1995.
In the past few days representations have been made to me by some of the county authorities, representatives of which I shall meet later this afternoon. They have said that the county elections should be postponed. That is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, but I shall listen carefully to the representations made to me and convey them to my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary.

§ 3. Mr. Wigley
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has held during recent weeks with representatives of local government and others concerning his future structure of government in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

§ Mr. David Hunt
I met the Assembly of Welsh Counties on 29 April. I shall meet representatives of all local authorities in Wales later today.

§ Mr. Wigley
When civil servants from the Welsh Office recently visited Belfast to discuss with the Northern Ireland Office civil servants the work of executive organisations in Northern Ireland, such as the Housing Executive and others, was it with a view to centralise services currently undertaken by local government in Wales? Is the Secretary of State aware of the strong feeling in Northern Ireland that as so many of the responsibilities are carried out by the executive organisations, those bodies must be subject to democratic oversight—a factor which is equally applicable to Wales?

§ Mr. Hunt
I seek to draw no parallels with Northern Ireland. The Conservative Government's position on devolution was set out clearly during the general election campaign. We do not believe that a separate Welsh assembly would benefit Wales; would mean the setting up of another bureaucratic structure that would come between the people and the Government. Our local government reforms seek to take government closer to the people.

§ Mr. Rowe
Since I come from part of the United Kingdom where we have to go back at least five elections to find a single Labour Member, I am glad that my right hon. Friend denies the claptrap about mandates. The cost of every reorganisation of local government since the war has been far greater than estimated in White Papers. Will my right hon. Friend make absolutely certain that, whether in Wales itself or throughout the United Kingdom via the knock-on effect, costs are truly worked out before the reforms are undertaken?

§ Mr. Hunt
I agree with my hon. Friend. I have placed in the Library a copy of the consultants' report on the potential reform of local government in Wales which shows that the reform proposed will be cost neutral. I warmly endorse my hon. Friend's comments.

§ Mr. Ron Davies
I offer my congratulations to the Secretary of State on retaining his post in the Cabinet, albeit after a little wobble. He should not be seduced by the hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) as he does have a problem since neither the Secretary of State nor the Conservative party has a mandate from the people of Wales. I hope that he will pay due regard to that factor when piloting the legislation through the House. Is he aware that there is a considerable measure of agreement that there should be change in local government and on the nature of the new local authorities? Will he assure us that when he is in consultation, he will listen carefully to what local authorities and hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies have to say? If he is prepared to do so, he will find that the legislation proceeds through the House more easily.

§ Mr. Hunt
I readily respond to the hon. Gentleman's comments, although I disregard his first two sentences which I felt were almost ritual. I warmly endorse his last 359 remarks: I feel that there is a consensus on which we can build. I shall meet the local authority associations in just over an hour. I am ready to meet Opposition Members as and when they are ready to come to see me, which I hope will be as soon as possible.

§ Mr. Sweeney
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Vale of Glamorgan will be one of the new unitary authorities, largely based on present boundaries?

§ Mr. Hunt
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his magnificent victory in the Vale of Glamorgan—we are delighted to see him here.
In my statement on 3 March I made it clear that the Vale of Glamorgan will be one of the 23 new unitary authorities, but I also said that I was open to further consultation on the boundaries. I look forward to hearing any representations that my hon. Friend may want to make to me on that subject.

§ Mr. Michael
Does the Secretary of State recognise the inconsistency in his coming to the Dispatch Box to say that he is willing to listen and, at the same time, refusing to listen to what the people of Wales said to him at the general election? Does he recognise that what is needed in the government of Wales is not more quangos but the strengthening of democracy? Will he follow the example of the Labour party, which consulted and listened, and whose policy on this issue commanded support and created consensus in Wales—and won overwhelming support there, as the Secretary of State and his colleagues should recognise? Will he take heed of the consensus that we have created in Wales?

§ Mr. Hunt
I believe that the only real inconsistency is to be found between the words that we have just heard from the hon. Gentleman and those that we heard a few moments ago from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies). I hope that the Labour party will be willing to discuss the new unitary authorities—the form that they should take, the way in which their internal management should be organised and the best way in which the services can be delivered—because I believe that there is a consensus. There is no great difference of opinion on the way in which unitary authorities should be introduced. There is a great deal of dissension about the boundaries, but there is an area of agreement about the broad range of local authority functions.
The hon. Gentleman may say that his proposals command widespread support, yet when they were first introduced they were strongly opposed and they were changed as a result—[Interruption.] Yes, they were changed a short time ago. I hope that when Opposition Members have had the opportunity to consider the proposals further, the hon. Gentleman will come to see me with his hon. Friends, just as I hope that the leaders of Plaid Cymru and of the Liberal Democrats will, along with my right hon. and hon. Friends. There is an opportunity here for Wales to lead the way in the reform of local government in the United Kingdom.