§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Robert G. Hughes.]
2.30 pm§ Ms. Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)First, I welcome the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage to his new responsibility. It is an historic occasion to be speaking in the first debate on matters relating to the new Department of National Heritage. The Secretary of State for National Heritage has been referred to as the Minister for free tickets, but he will know as well as I that in politics there is no such thing as a free ticket, and I am sure that he will remember that.
Today's debate is an opportunity not just to clarify the breadth of the new Department's responsibilities in relation to football but to consider where football stands as we come to the end of the current season, and on the eve of that great showpiece, the FA cup at Wembley. At the end of a season when attendances have been up for the fifth year running, it is ironic that next season fewer people will be able to watch football and will pay more to do so. In one sense, it is the end of an era because we are seeing the break-up of the football league.
The premier league will begin, as predicted by all those concerned about football, as a super league for super television money. That has always been the real intent of those who wanted a premier league. All the grand talk about how good it would be for football is exposed as a sham. There will still be 22 clubs in the premier league, the same congestion of fixtures and no help for our international teams. The premier league will mean fewer professional clubs and fewer professional players.
We thus end the football season with the football league broken up for the sake of sheer greed on the part of a few club chairmen. An extra level of bureaucracy has been created and we are further than ever from restructuring the whole of the management of the professional game, which is so badly needed and which was so admirably suggested in the Professional Footballers Association blueprint for the future of football published last year—the creation of a Football Federation—which I urge the Minister to read closely if he has not already done so. If football is to maximise the support required from the public, the commercial sector and the Government, a restructuring of the whole of the management of the game is essential. For any plan to succeed, it must have the good will of the Football Association, the League and the PFA.
The feuding that has gone on within the football industry has been a feature of life for many years. The conflicting leadership and management at the highest level identifies the need for a more rational and unified approach to the administrative side of the sport. Sadly, the imagination and integrity shown by the PFA is not visible within the FA. The whole attitude of the FA, for example, to the organising of English supporters wishing to attend the European championships in Sweden next month, has been negative. It has extended virtually no co-operation to the football supporters organisations in their attempts to set up an advice and information centre in Sweden along the lines of the successful venture at the world cup in Italy.
The FA has not used the European championship supporters welfare sub-committee in the way it was envisaged. I believe that, between them, the FA and the officials of the Department of Education have managed to 348 confuse supporters completely about the arrangements for Sweden and have created a catalogue of chaos. We now know for certain that the FA asked the Swedish authorities not to co-operate with anyone from the Football Supporters Association. Consequently, a small amount of grant from the Football Trust to the FSA for its work in Sweden has effectively been blocked.
I genuinely urge the new Minister not to act immediately on everything that his officials tell him, particularly those he inherits from the Department of Education. He should balance the advice from them by urgently meeting supporters organisations. He will discover the enormous talent and knowledge within such groups, be it the FSA, the Federation of Football Supporters, other independent sporting organisations or supporters up and down the country who produce football fanzines. I hope that he will listen to such groups because he can learn from them.
I am delighted that we have been awarded the European championships in 1996. However, I do not believe that this country will receive the enormous benefit to be derived from hosting them unless the supporters organisations are handled in a much more positive manner. Such an approach was commended in the Taylor report, but, sad to say, the previous Minister seemed reticent to acknowledge that part of the report.
Once again, I have to criticise the Football Association for its handling of the FA cup final tickets. Tomorrow, thousands of loyal Sunderland and Liverpool supporters, many of whom attended every one of their club's matches last season, will be unable to obtain a ticket for the cup final. They will all be at home watching the match on television, while hundreds of people who have not attended a single football match this season anywhere in the country will be at the final, thanks to the corporate hospitality laid on by companies and to ticket touts.
The FA says that it has undercover agents checking for ticket touting, but it is virtually impossible to prevent even by legislation. The FA could radically change the position by increasing the cup final ticket allocation to clubs. No genuine Sunderland supporter would sell a cup final ticket, so that would be one way of quickly putting a stop to ticket touting at the cup final.
I pay tribute to the work of the Football Trust, particularly its continued support for supporters organisations and the development of women's football in this country. I welcome its grant aid scheme to assist clubs in developing stewarding. That will help to keep down the costs of policing football matches, which amounted to £7 million last season. We must all welcome the way in which the general policing of grounds is improving, due to the much more co-operative support given by police to football clubs and supporters. Indeed, the police often take more account of the supporters organisations than the football authorities.
Probably the most important issue about which, I hope, the Minister may enlighten us today is the Government's position on the Taylor recommendations on developing all-seater stadiums. He will be aware that, during the election period, much was said on the subject. The Prime Minister himself made a statement on the Taylor report, but we need urgent clarification.
The Football Licensing Authority, which is in the difficult position of having to implement not just overall safety at football grounds, but the all-seater stadium requirement, is now in a virtual limbo. It cannot go ahead 349 with the licensing because it does not know how matters stand. There must be further discussion of this issue immediately.
The Minister has a lot of reading to do. I hope that he has read the whole Taylor report. There are many misconceptions about it. It did not say that it is not safe to stand at any football matches. Seventy-two or 73 of its 76 recommendations have already been implemented—measures to do with co-ordination of access, terracing and turnstiles, problems which all contributed to the terrible tragedy. Now we must return to considering whether all-seater stadiums are sensible as a dogmatic approach or whether they are wanted because a few club chairmen want them for reasons other than safety. Some of the first division clubs have moved quickly on all-seater stadiums, even though there was no need to do so, because some of the chairmen wanted to have fewer people paying more at matches and to change the type of person who attends them. We must not allow that to happen.
I hope that the Minister will also read the Football Supporters Association document on the preservation of standing accommodation at football grounds. Those in football who have read this good document properly have all said that it is a worthy effort. It shows that those who support the right to have some standing at all football grounds are not Luddites. This progressive report shows that people do not want to stand just because their forefathers always stood—standing accommodation will also need to be changed. It is not necessarily a cheap solution and it will involve spending money. Terracing needs money spent on it, too.
It is nonsensical for the Prime Minister to say that the Government will reconsider Taylor's recommendations for all-seater stadiums for third and fourth division clubs or for clubs with upper attendance limits. If it is safe to stand at some grounds, it must be safe to stand at all of them. If enough attention had been paid to the Institution of Structural Engineers report—the Minister has a great deal of reading to do on this—which all responsible Ministers, including the former Minister for Sport who wrote to me to say so, thought was a good contribution, the point would have been understood. I assume that the Minister, the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), has taken over responsibility from the Home Office for safety at sports grounds, but the former Home Secretary said that he regarded the report as an important contribution towards achieving safety at sports grounds. The report does not, however, state that it is unsafe to stand.
Before we pursue a dogmatic all-seater policy, we must get all the football authorities around the table and ask how we can make our football grounds places to which people want to go and in which they will feel safe and have the facilities that they want. That does not mean all-seater stadiums, but it does mean that we must put safety first. The horrible incident earlier this week involved people who were sitting down, so it is not a matter of sitting or standing but of how people sit or stand.
Tomorrow at Wembley many people will not be able to see from their seats and will spend half their time standing up. That happens at many stadiums, and it shows that all-seater stadiums are not a simple solution.
What is the FLA's responsibility for existing grounds, such as Wembley, as it apparently has responsibility for 350 safety only at new developments? If we are serious about safety, we should look at existing stadiums. All-seater stands will lead to the continuation of small clubs being put out of football. The game has become more fragmented than ever. Admission prices will rise, next year people will be expected to pay about £22 to stand at various clubs and families will no longer be able to afford to take their children to football matches. That is not what people want, and it is certainly not the wish of football supporters to see families precluded by high admission charges.
The Minister has an opportunity which does not often arise. You are in at the beginning of something new. The Department could change the whole nature of our cultural life. I welcome the setting up of your Department and hope that you will use your office and status to bring together people in football. I do not think that your predecessor used his influence to do that. If necessary, you must knock some heads together. Our game must be properly protected and the role of a Minister with responsibility for that must be to see that it happens. I urge you most strongly on behalf of the supporters—
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris)Order. I should be most grateful if the hon. Lady would remember that the word "you" is not appropriate in the Chamber.
§ Ms. HoeyYou are fairly new to your position, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I am fairly new to mine, but I appreciate that I should be aware of the House's customs and I apologise. As I was saying, Minister, you have—I am sorry; what nonsensical rules we have to follow in this place.
The Minister has a role and a responsibility which his predecessors did not fully meet. Our game must be protected. Now is the time to think again about the sense of continuing with the dogma of all-seater stadiums. As the Daily Star said clearly and loudly, "Stand up for the fans." If the Minister does that, he will do something for the game in this country.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Robert Key)I welcome my first opportunity to greet you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, from the Dispatch Box and welcome you to your new position. I look forward to many happy hours in your strict care.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms. Hoey) on raising the important issue of the future of football. I thank her for her welcome and commend her attitude to the huge endeavour that my new Department has before it. I hope that we can continue as we have started in the pursuit of excellence in sport. I pay tribute to what has been achieved by the football authorities and the clubs in modernising facilities and improving standards of behaviour on and off the pitch. I shall set out the Government's view on the direction that football might take in future and deal primarily with the position in England. Like my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, I look forward to our meeting on Monday with the all-party parliamentary group on football under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry), who is in his place.
Before dealing with the specific issues raised by the hon. Lady, I shall speak about the place of sport and its priority in the new Department of National Heritage. The 351 Government remain committed to the well-being of sport in this country, to the improvement of facilities for participants and spectators, to the provision of opportunities for all those who wish to take part in sport and to the achievement of higher standards of performance. Those are key objectives and have a high priority on the agenda of the new Department.
Sports provision will be enhanced by giving it a direct voice in the Cabinet. I am sure that I do not need to remind the hon. Lady that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State and I are committed supporters of a variety of sports and not all the same ones, which is perhaps just as well. The best-known sports supporter in the Government is, of course, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. I was delighted to learn that the Sports Council, which is the premier voice for sport in England, has welcomed the decision to transfer sport to the new Department. I hope that all will see the transfer as a strengthening of sport's role and a raising of its profile.
In considering the sports role of the new Department, we have decided that it would be appropriate to bring together its general sports responsibilities, including those for the comfort of spectators at sports events, and responsibility for the safety of those spectators, which has hitherto been exercised by the Home Secretary. It has therefore been agreed that my Department should be responsible for all safety at sports ground matters, including the Government's policy on all-seating at football grounds. I should make it clear, however, that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland retains overall responsibility for sport and safety at sports grounds in Scotland.
Turning to more specific football issues, I congratulate the hon. Lady on the timing of this debate following Tuesday's announcement that England is to host the 1996 European championships. It has been a long time since 1966, when we last hosted an international football tournament, and this success bodes well for the future. It reflects UEFA's confidence in the quality of our stadiums, the improved behaviour of our spectators and our ability to organise a successful tournament. I am sure all hon. Members will join me in congratulating the Football Association on this achievement following the most professional bid, which we supported.
Our clubs were readmitted to Europe two seasons ago, largely on the strength of the improvement in spectator behaviour. We are pleased to see that the improvement is continuing this season, despite one or two incidents. The improvements have much to do with the hard work not least by the police, as the hon. Lady has acknowledged, with the benefit of increasing use of closed circuit television, and by the clubs through better stewarding and other measures. The improvements also reflect a change of attitude by spectators, the great majority of whom were always law abiding but whose image was tarnished by a hooligan minority.
We cannot afford to be complacent. We must ensure that there is no regression towards the unacceptable hooligan behaviour that gave football such a bad name among many people in this country and abroad. That is why we supported the legislation introduced last year. I shall, of course, listen to the voices of football organisations, including the supporters. The Government and the FA have sought to involve the Football Supporters Association in discussions about advice centres in Sweden. From what I have learnt, I fear that sometimes 352 it was the FSA that perhaps misrepresented the position of the FA and Government officials, to the detriment of football supporters in general. I hear what the hon. Lady says, however, and I shall listen to the voices of football.
The quality of some of our stadiums has improved immeasurably as a result of the implementation of Lord Justice Taylor's recommendations. I know that before the tragedy at Hillsborough a number of clubs were aware of the imperative need to improve the comfort and safety of the facilities on offer to spectators at their grounds. Those clubs that did not were in a minority, and the Taylor report brought home the message to many clubs that their spectators were entitled to expect high standards. The Taylor report, the valuable work of the Football Licensing Authority and the UEFA club competition requirements of all-seating for high-risk matches from next season and for standing accommodation to be phased out for other matches by the year 2000 have all acted as a spur to clubs to introduce the necessary improvements. We have played our part in assisting in these improvements through the reduction in pool betting duty.
I recognise the remarkable achievements that some clubs have made, with the benefit of Football Trust moneys, in improving safety and comfort in moving towards implementation of the Taylor report. Other clubs, however, have made little or no progress in implementing all-seating stadiums. I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady's views on all-seating provision in football grounds, and we shall continue to listen to all views on the matter, which raises strong feelings among a wide range of football supporters.
I appreciate that, for many, standing at football matches is an integral part of their enjoyment. I have sympathy for clubs in the lower divisions which attract gates of only a few thousand. In looking at the particular circumstances of those clubs, it may not be realistic to expect them to provide the same facilities as those of the big premier league clubs. It may not make sense to close off sparsely populated terraces at some grounds where safety risks may be minimal. On the other hand, clubs in the top two divisions must maintain the momentum towards providing the appropriate level of facilities and comfort which spectators are entitled to expect as we approach the 21st century.
Of course, all clubs need to make their grounds safe. The recent tragic events in Corsica have reminded us of the importance of providing safe facilities. I assure the hon. Lady that if, following the receipt of views and representations, we decide to relax the all-seating requirement, we will make an announcement as a matter of urgency.
I know that there is concern about temporary grandstands at football matches. A revised edition of the "Home Office Guide to Safety of Sports Grounds", the "Green Guide", was published in November 1990 and incorporated the appropriate recommendations of Lord Justice Taylor's final report on the Hillsborough stadium disaster.
Chapter 12 of the guide provides guidance on the use of temporary stands at sporting events. The guide states that although some temporary stands will be erected for a single event only, there is no justification for accepting a lower standard of safety for such structures than elsewhere within the sports ground. In addition, specific advice is given on the siting, assembly and dismantling of temporary stands and structures. The guide also advises 353 that all temporary stands should be capable of withstanding any load or force to which they may be subjected and that account should be taken of any external factors, such as wind force. Consultation with the local authority and with the fire authority should take place at an early stage.
In this country, temporary stands are commonly used to seat spectators at large golf tournaments. They are also used at a variety of sporting occasions, such as the World Student games staged at the Don Valley stadium in Sheffield in 1991. Temporary stands, in one form or another, are found as frequently at other outdoor events such as circuses, fairs and pop concerts. Advice on the use of temporary seating for temporary structures and places of entertainment which are under cover in otherwise open air situations is given in chapter 13 of the Home Office guide to fire precautions in places of entertainment. The Home Office aims to make regulations and to issue associated guidance in 1993 for all places of work in the open air, which will include temporary stands.
Quite apart from the drive for improvement of stadiums, football is, of course, moving into what I hope will be an exciting new era, with the setting up of the premier league at the start of the 1992–93 season. We believe that there should be co-operation between the Football Association, the premier league, the Football League and the Professional Footballers Association in 354 deciding the development of the game. In all this, the role of the Football Association as the governing body of the game needs to be fully respected.
In addition to improving their facilities, clubs are making much greater efforts to improve their relations with their supporters and taking their views into account. Football in the community schemes are thriving throughout the country and they are an excellent way of bringing clubs, local communities and supporters closer together.
We can be proud of our achievements on the field and the opportunities that lie before English football in Europe. Following England's excellent performance in the 1990 world cup last season, Manchester United won the European Cup Winners cup. Although we have not been able to repeat that level of European success at club level this season, the progress of our representatives has been sufficient for us to earn an extra place in the UEFA cup next season. I send my best wishes to Leeds United, to Manchester United, to Sheffield Wednesday and to the winners of tomorrow's cup final in their European quests next season. More immediately, we can look forward to England's participation in the European championship finals in Sweden in June. Graham Taylor's team is approaching the final stages following a very impressive run of results and I think that we have every reason to be optimistic about the prospects for the team. I wish it every success. I wish the game of football every success in the years ahead.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Three o'clock.