HC Deb 02 July 1992 vol 210 cc955-7
10. Mr. Moate

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the total public expenditure on support for United Kingdom farmers (a) from the Exchequer, (b) individually via the European Community and (c) in total.

Mr. Gummer

Details of public expenditure on agriculture are given in "Agriculture in the United Kingdom: 1991" in table 9.1.

Mr. Moate

Would it surprise my right hon. Friend to know that in 1991–92 the British taxpayer spent £4,120 million on agricultural support, which would be enough for my right hon. Friend to send a cheque for about £17,095.35 to every one of the 241,000 farms—small and large—in this country? As British farmers are clearly not receiving that level of benefit and, even after the changes to it, the common agricultural policy will not give good value for money to taxpayers, consumers or farmers and will not benefit the countryside, what further CAP reforms will my right hon. Friend press for?

Mr. Gummer

My hon. Friend has never been a great enthusiast of the European Community or the common agricultural policy, and he might well have asked that question using different figures at any time during the past 10 years. There has been a major reform and we are able to support the production of food and care for the countryside, which is the farmers' duty. That system is right for the whole of Europe. I believe that our environmental heritage is not limited to the United Kingdom; I want it to prevail in Europe. I am sure that my hon. Friend's children, and my own, will benefit from a system that ensures that we look after the countryside, from Scotland to Sicily.

Mr. Dafis

Does the Minister recognise the need for a comprehensive strategy to enable young people to enter farming, including the possibility of low interest loans and start-up grants, perhaps based on the French model? Does he also recognise the need for measures to control or limit the fragmentation and amalgamation of farms? Does he recognise that there would be a broad welcome for such measures in rural communities, specifically in rural Wales?

Mr. Gummer

I am sure that people in rural Wales will be pleased that we have been able to prevent the discrimination against them that would have occurred under the MacSharry plan, and which would have placed them in a worse position than the people of rural Ireland. The basis of our reform is exactly as the hon. Gentleman would want it. I wonder whether he would want the low rate of interest loans that the French have if, at the same time, he was subject to the French inheritance laws under which the French have to pay back large sums of money to every other member of the family when they inherit a farm. That is one of the reasons for their low interest rates, and the hon. Gentleman would have to accept both features. I do not think that his proposals would be sensible for rural Wales or for the rest of the country.

Mr. Oppenheim

Should we not add to the huge direct subsidy that farmers receive the massive extra burden borne by consumers to protect farmers from foreign produce? At a time when many members of the farming lobby in Britain are complaining about the possibility of job losses as a result of the reform of the common agricultural policy, should we not remind them of the huge number of jobs lost in Europe over the past 40 years as a result of the artificial diversion of huge sums of money into the agricultural industry? That money could have been more efficiently deployed in other industries, thus creating more jobs in them.

Mr. Gummer

I deeply disagree with my hon. Friend. If we had carried out his proposals, countries such as the United States, which heavily subsidise farmers, would have been able to take over the whole of our agricultural industry and we would find it impossible to produce our own food or look after our countryside. There will always be a need for proper support for agriculture in a country like ours, as in the rest of Europe, as we place upon farmers environmental responsibilities which they cannot afford from their returns from the market. We need to strike a proper balance, which we will come closer to achieving through CAP reform. That is the beginning of what will be the continuing business of adapting our system to the realities of life, not to some theoretical free market that does not exist in the world in which most farmers are supported.

Mr. Skinner

Is the Minister aware that in Bolsover, where every family has to pay more than £18 a week to bail out rich farmers because of the common agricultural policy, people are saying that it is high time that this wart of a Minister got something done about the dioxin in the area? Is he also aware that last week it was announced that one family was found to have up to six times more than the normal level of dioxin in their blood? On top of that, he is refusing to pay farmers compensation. Why does he not have a public inquiry, settle the matter and ensure that the people of Bolsover are able to lay their complaints at the door where they really belong—the Government and this little squirt of a Minister.

Madam Speaker

Order. I am sure that the hon. Member will regret—

Mr. Skinner

I meant every word.

Madam Speaker

Order. I am asking——[Interruption.] Order. I am asking the hon. Gentleman to withdraw that remark.

Mr. Skinner

I will not.

Madam Speaker

I am asking the hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.] Order. I also ask the House to leave this matter to me. I ask the hon. Member for Bolsover if he will withdraw the word that he has just used.

Mr. Skinner

I know "Erskine May" a little. I know that that word is not in it. I know that not long ago my right hon. Friend referred to a Tory as a jerk. I am not prepared to withdraw because that is how I picture the Minister.

Madam Speaker

Order. I am very reluctant to use the authority that the House has given me and I again ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his remark—[Interruption.] Order. I am well aware that the remark that he made is not in "Erskine May" but there are some phrases and a vocabulary that should not be used in the House. Once again, I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the remark that he made.

Mr. Skinner

No.

Madam Speaker

I am most reluctant to use my disciplinary powers. Will the hon. Member for Bolsover withdraw that remark?

Mr. Skinner

No.

Madam Speaker

That being the case I have no alternative but to ask the hon. Member for Bolsover to withdraw from the House for this days's sitting.

The hon. Member then withdrew from the House.