Permanent Secretaries (Hansard, 13 January 1992)

§ 40. Mrs. Gorman
To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will introduce arrangements so that each Department of State has co-equal male and female permanent secretaries.

§ Mr. Renton
No. The Government have a comprehensive programme of action to promote equality of opportunity. The proportion of women in the top three grades has almost doubled in the past four years.

§ Mrs. Gorman
Pending the time when we have a balance of men and women in this Chamber—a matter on which I shall expound next Tuesday afternoon, when I hope that many of my colleagues will support the concept of more women in this House—does my right hon. Friend agree that public consciousness of the lack of female representation of women's views in our national life is now very high? Would not one way to meet the increasing demand for female representation be to have two permanent secretaries—a man and a woman—at each Department? Does he agree that any Department which adopted such a policy would have the grateful thanks of a vast number of women?

§ Mr. Renton
Given my hon. Friend's well-known commitment to productivity, efficiency and careful spending of money in the public sector, I am surprised by her suggestion and I do not think that it is tremendously sensible. As for my hon. Friend's other idea, I wonder whether she would enjoy having her own constituency split, with one half represented by a man called Billy and the other by a woman called Ricca.

§ Mr. Beith
Will the Minister persist in his rejection of that totally barmy proposal and instead direct his attention to ensuring that the many well-qualified and able women who are in the civil service get the real top jobs? Will he set an example by persuading the Prime Minister to do something about the membership of the Cabinet? Can it really be the case that there is no Conservative woman Back Bencher who could do a better job than some of the present Cabinet Ministers?

§ Mr. Renton
Not a better job, but certainly a very good job. I am sure that after the next general election, there will be Conservative women in the Cabinet of a Conservative Government. I am delighted to repeat that the number of 667 women in the top grades of the civil service is improving all the time and they, of course, will be the permanent secretaries of the future.

§ Mr. Rowe
Does my right hon. Friend agree that one way of improving the representation of women in the higher reaches of the civil service still further would be to make matters easier for them lower down the ladder? Can he give any information as to how arrangements such as job sharing have grown in the civil service to facilitate that desirable outcome?

§ Mr. Renton
It is now possible for women in every grade and every position in the civil service to be part-time workers. That means, by definition, that there is an opportunity in every grade for job sharing of some kind. We are considering many other aspects in order to improve the position of women in the civil service—to make it easier for them to take jobs, leave to have children, and return later. The civil service is on the right path and it often serves as a good guide and leading light to the private sector.

§ Dr. Marek
As usual, the Minister makes a lot of statements but gives no real facts, It would be useful if he followed the Prime Minister's example and supported the concept of targets for the number of women that he expects to see in grades 1 to 5 of the civil service in one, two and five years' time. As the Minister does not deny that there are enough women from which to choose, would not a little concentration on that issue, and the provision of targets so that we can all see what is going on, be very welcome?

§ Mr. Renton
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman gives credit to what is being done by civil service departments and executive agencies. The setting of targets would be wrong because it would mean exercising positive discrimination, whereby not necessarily all jobs would go to those with the right and proper talents to do them. Our principle in the civil service is that all jobs should be available to everyone—irrespective of sex, race, creed or religion. That should be the guiding principle, together with good guidelines to managers as to how to operate within that broad principle.

§ Mr. Beaumont-Dark
Does my right hon. Friend agree that nothing is more insulting to women—whether it is said by women or men—than talk of setting targets for the number of women to be in top posts? Has it not been proved in the House that a woman can get to the top job in the land? Whether that is achieved by a woman on this side or the other side of the House, to talk of women gaining promotion as part of a target number is one of the most stupid and fatuous things that anyone could suggest.

§ Mr. Renton
My wife would certainly agree with my hon. Friend's remarks, as would most right hon. and hon. Members.