REPEALS AND REVOCATIONS (Hansard, 16 December 1992)

§ Mr. McFall
As we said on Second Reading, we should understand the true context of the Bill. First, it emerges from a period of unprecedented upheaval in the Scottish prison service. Secondly, and just as importantly, it 500 emerges from the fact that we are top of the league in Europe for gaoling people. We therefore need to do something to try to alleviate the situation.
The Bill provided a good opportunity to consider a number of issues. The Opposition can take comfort from the fact that we have highlighted a number of areas for future discussion and, I hope, for future progress, not least the issue of fine defaulters. Fine defaulters comprise 40 per cent. of those entering prison. That is a waste of prison resources about which something should be done and we look forward to the Government taking that on.
We have brought our concerns regarding sections 71 and 72 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 to the Minister's attention and he has responded. In England and Wales there has been a review of health services for mentally disordered offenders and others requiring similar services. It has reported under the chairmanship of Dr. John Reid. I should like a similar course of action to be taken for individuals in Scotland. I hope that the Minister will take that on board.
I thank the Minister for his helpful letters to us during the Committee proceedings right up to today's deliberations.
We were pleased to note that the issue concerning ethnic minorities had been addressed in Barlinnie prison, where prison officers have a formal relationship with Strathclyde community relations council. That is good news, which we welcome. We welcome any progress which can be made on this.
The issue of young people and their rehabilitation is important, and we should like the Minister and others to bear in mind our concern about that. I have received a number of helpful representations from various bodies. One was from a solicitor who has defended criminal cases for more than 20 years. He said: It is my experience of defending the same people again and again over the years, that the vast majority of my clients give up committing crime not because of any particular sentence which is imposed on them by a Court but rather despite sentences which are imposed on them. Most people give up committing crime because they simply mature or they get a job or they meet a girl who keeps them on the straight and narrow or some other significant life event which causes them to confront the way they have behaved in the past and resolve not to behave that way again". That illustrates the role that families and other people outside prison play in rehabilitation. That aspect must be emphasised and kept in mind.
I do not want to be too partisan, but I have to point out that there has been no input from the Scottish National party to the Bill on Second Reading, in Committee or on Report. That is a gross failure on behalf of the SNP. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) and others have occupied the airwaves for the past four or five days telling us to boycott this place. The hon. Gentleman receives more than his fair share of attention in this place. As Peterhead prison is in his constituency, it is incumbent on him to represent its interests.
I wish the Opposition to be associated with the good work that is going on in Peterhead prison with regard to the vicious circle of sex offences. Under a project being carried out at Peterhead prison, treatment is given to inmates to try to break the cycle of sex offences. The Glasgow Herald of Saturday 12 December contained a good report by James Freeman, the home affairs 501 correspondent, of his visit to Peterhead prison. I should like the Government to support the work undertaken in that prison by the governor, Alec Spencer.
I mentioned the SNP and, to be fair, I shall mention the Liberal Democrats. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) said on Second Reading that hardly a Christmas goes by without a tabloid newspaper describing the pleasures enjoyed by those who happen to be in prison at that time. He said that in no way would the reporters exchange their life for that of the prisoners. That is extremely important, and with Christmas so close we should bear it in mind. I commend those comments by the hon. and learned Gentleman and congratulate him on his contribution in Committee.
The Opposition welcome the parole recommendations, the work of Kincraig and the Minister's response to the issue of children's evidence. We hope that the Minister will place the Bill in the context that I mentioned at the beginning of his speech. He will have the full support and backing of the Official Opposition for progressive and enlightened measures in the Scottish prison service. We hope that the Bill will be followed by others so that we may have a more sensitive and enlightened criminal justice system in Scotland. We therefore support Third Reading of the Bill.

§ Dr. Godman
I shall not speak for more than three minutes, because I am starving. Scots Members who are present will not be surprised to hear me say that I intend to confine my speech to clauses 33, 34 and 35. Those who urge us to boycott this place when it is debating such important Scottish legislation exhibit a lack of judgment. As I have said before, those three clauses give added protection to child witnesses who are caught up in the horrendous circumstances of sexual abuse and child abuse and often in cases of the most appalling neglect.
Will the Minister ensure that the equipment and installations to enable child witnesses to take advantage of the Bill's provisions are installed as quickly as possible? As the Minister knows, only two courts in Scotland have closed circuit television links. They are in Edinburgh and in sheriff court No. 5 in Glasgow. England and Wales has more than 40 Crown courts with such installations. I hope that at least one sheriff court in each of the sheriffdoms will be given such equipment. That is the least that we can demand on behalf of children who are caught up in such cases. It is wrong to expect child witnesses to travel hundreds of miles to give evidence in a court or a building containing such a television system.
We are debating remarkable measures which will place Scots law in advance of the law elsewhere, because they will give added protection to children while at the same time maintaining the rights of the accused.

§ Mr. Hood
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) said that he would speak for only three minutes because he was starving. I am a bit peckish myself and I look forward to dining with my hon. Friend in about five mintues. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) referred to the Scottish National party. I shall not comment for partisan reasons 502 —[Interruption.] Perhaps in my naive way I am not explaining myself properly and people will think that I am being mischievous.
My constituency covers more than 600 square miles and is one of the largest in the United Kingdom. On television and in the press I see reports about people who share my profession and are paid a good salary to come here and represent those least able to represent themselves. The Bill is the best example for politicians who engage in rhetoric, play gesture politics and tell us that we should not be here. They say that we should sit on our backsides, swan off on rallies or push umbrellas up and down in the pouring rain. That is not my way of representing the 60,000 people who sent me here.
Such an attitude is complete nonsense and those who hold it should speak to George Beattie, an innocent man who has served 13 years in prison and whose only chance of representation is to have his Member of Parliament speak in the House on his behalf. They could also speak to Margaret Smith, who has been in prison for 10 years. It is about time she was out, and she needs someone to speak up for her. Those who want to play silly political games should speak to people who need consideration.
The Bill seeks to improve the running of our prisons and look after the people who are in them. There has been much agreement about the Bill's aims, and for that reason they will probably succeed. We always have our failures and I am sure that we are not smug enough to think that this time we have got it right. However, all hon. Members will agree that we must seek continually to improve the way in which we treat people in our prisons and run our criminal proceedings. I have referred to George Beattie and Margaret Smith. There are also 14-year-old children in Scottish prisons. That is not right, and while it continues we must seek to improve the way in which we operate.

§ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall): it is preposterous that Scottish National party Members do not appear for a major debate on important Scottish legislation. The hon. Gentleman referred to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), who has a significant prison in his constituency. This legislation is extremely important to the officers who work in that prison.
I pay tribute to the Kincraig committee, whose report has largely been implemented through the Bill. I am grateful to Opposition Members and to my hon. Friends for their constructive contributions to the debates on the Bill. We have made substantial strides on the issue of children's evidence, in which the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) has always been especially interested.
I pay tribute to the Scottish Law Commission for its work. The Lord Advocate particularly appreciates the immensely detailed hard work carried out by the commission. The Bill will be important both for prison officers and for prisoners. The prison service has made significant improvements in the management of prisons and further positive changes will be made in the next few years.
I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) and to the hon. Member for Dumbarton that the change in the law to allow the right of appeal against 503 sentences which are too lenient is a substantial reform to the law of Scotland, and one that I believe will be welcomed. I believe that the protection of children in court proceedings will also be regarded as extremely important.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe), who put the case for disadvantaged groups. Any fears expressed by Helena Kennedy about the blindness of justice have not been borne out in the House on this Bill. We have carefully considered how accused persons, people with disabilities, prisoners on appeal and others will be affected by the matters on which we are legislating. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) for his efforts to enhance the protection of Scotland's rare birds.
I am glad that the House has made its will plain to the other place. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it abundantly clear in his speech that this House opposes any exclusion of evidence from proceedings brought under the War Crimes Act 1991. I firmly believe that it is right that proceedings under that Act should be conducted under the same evidential regime as other proceedings in respect of serious crimes. I hope that the other place will now accept the decision of the House of Commons.
It is fair to say that the Bill has attracted a large measure of cross-party support and I strongly commend it to the House.