HC Deb 21 May 1991 vol 191 cc781-4
Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

What is the point of order?

Mr. Madden

I wish to raise a point of order of which I gave you notice.

Mr. Speaker

But this occurred last Tuesday.

Mr. Madden

I gave notice to the Secretary of State for Health also.

On 14 May I asked the Secretary of State for Health about the 300 redundancies to take place at Bradford health trust. In reply he said: The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that there will be 300 redundancies in the trust. There is no question of that"—[Official Report, 14 May 1991; Vol. 191, c. 146.] I have since received, in a plain brown envelope, the business plan for Bradford health trust, paragraph 1.5 of which states——

Mr. Speaker

Order. With the greatest respect, I must stop the hon. Gentleman here. He intimated to me that he wanted to refer to a matter which first arose at Question Time last Tuesday—a week ago. I hope that he will not mind my reminding him that I replied that we could not allow points of order in connection with something that had happened a week before. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because answers to questions are not my responsibility.

Mr. Madden

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I passed a note to your Secretary, Mr. Speaker, explaining that I wished to refer to the paragraph of the business plan that says: changes in the level and style of service, together with the results of competitive tendering will lead to a reduction in the workforce of about 200 during 1991"—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has heard me say, and the whole House knows, that I cannot be held responsible for answers to questions. This is not a matter of order for me. [Interruption.] Will the occupants of the Opposition Front Bench please allow me to deal with the matter? I am not responsible for answers. The hon. Gentleman must find other ways of taking up the matter with the Government. It is a matter for the Government, not for me.

Mr. Madden

I advised the Secretary of State for Health that I intended to raise the matter, Sir. It seems that, whoever is attempting to conceal the truth about health care, it is not my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) or the Labour party; it is the Secretary of State for Health, the Conservative party and the Government.

Several Hon. Members

rose——

Mr. Speaker

Order. I hope that the House will always support the occupant of the Chair in this matter. Replies to questions are not a matter for the Chair and points of order in connection with them waste a great deal of time. We have enormous pressures today—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh?"] We certainly have; I know.

Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield)

On a separate point of order, which I believe falls within your remit, Mr. Speaker. My point of order is urgent. Within the past half hour I have been to the Table Office to table questions on national health trusts. The Clerks tell me that Ministers are keeping an open mind for a little while longer in accepting questions on trusts, but that, in a very few days' time, there will be no possibility of hon. Members' tabling questions on national health trusts. That leads to enormous confusion, Mr. Speaker. Do we have the right to ask questions about national health trusts or do we not?

Mr. Speaker

The answer to that question—and the answer that the hon. Gentleman received from the Table Office—is yes.

Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland)

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely it cannot be acceptable for Ministers to refuse to take questions about what is happening in opted-out hospitals, which, we are assured, are still in the national health service. Are we really to accept the argument—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not a point of order."] It is a point of order. Are we really to be told, Mr. Speaker, that hon. Members on both sides of the House —who I assume want to be assured that their constituents are getting proper and fair treatment in the national health service—are no longer to be allowed to table parliamentary questions about it?

Mr. Speaker

I have already said that the Table Office is accepting questions.

Mr. Andrew MacKay (Berkshire, East)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your advice on an important matter which will need to be resolved very shortly. It is clear from today's proceedings that the national health service will continue to be a matter of debate and disagreement in the House. You will be aware from the Register of Members' Interests that approximately one third of Opposition Members are sponsored by unions associated with the national health service. I seek your ruling, Sir, on whether those hon. Members—whether in speeches, points of order or questions—should declare their interest so that we can tell whether they are acting in the interests of patients or porters.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The rules remain the same. It is not our convention to declare an interest at Question Time; it is our convention to declare an interest during debate.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You said that questions on opted-out trusts could be tabled in the Table Office. Will we be able to table such questions after the recess, or will we be denied our parliamentary rights by Ministers opting out of their responsibility?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), who originally raised this point, raised a hypothetical question. He prefaced his remarks by saying that he had been told that something might happen in the future. I cannot tell what will happen in the future. I can tell the House what is happening now, and I have said that those questions will be accepted by the Table Office.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

I believe that this is a point of order for you, Mr. Speaker, because it affects the powers of the House. We have in this House, through Acts of Parliament, surrendered certain powers to European institutions. Since that time, it seems that further powers are being sought by stealth. Neither you nor, I am sure, any hon. Member could have imagined at the time of our passing the Single European Act that we were surrendering to European institutions powers over tobacco advertising. Should it come about through majority voting that such legislation was foisted upon this country, would it be incumbent upon the House to facilitate the passing of such legislation?

Mr. Speaker

This is another thing that might happen in the future. I cannot answer that question now.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have just heard the hon. Member for Berkshire, East (Mr. MacKay) refer to the fact that some of my hon. Friends are sponsored by COHSE and NUPE. I think that he had the figure wrong, but that is by the way. Will you, since you are are in charge ultimately of the register, make it clear that it would be a good idea if in future another item were registered—how many Tory Members have private health care?

Mr. Dave Nellist (Coventry, South-East)

On two separate points of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Let us have one, please; I think that that is enough for me. [Interruption.] Order. I am trying to help the hon. Member. I understand that it is the wish of the House to get on with its business rather rapidly today. In view of the number of hon. Members who wish to participate and the fact that the major debate ends at 11.30 pm it will not be possible for me to call all hon. Members who wish to speak in that debate if I have points of order now.

Mr. Nellist

I am grateful for that information, Mr. Speaker.

On my point of order, in reply to two previous points of order you said that a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) was in the past and therefore it was too late to raise it now, and that the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) was in the future and therefore hypothetical. If it is put to you as a point of order that the Table Office has said that there is now doubt about whether hon. Members will be able to ask questions about national health trusts, should you not at least reassure us that you will investigate what statements have been made and report to us tomorrow?

Several Hon. Members

rose——

Mr. Speaker

I will deal with all these points of order together. I think that will be quicker.

Mr. Sheerman

Further to my earlier point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was merely seeking guidance so that hon. Members might know whether they will be allowed to carry on asking questions about national health trusts. We were told only 15 minutes ago that our ability to ask questions was very soon to be halted by the Government. Does that mean another week, another month or another two months?

Mr. Speaker

I understand that the hon. Member had an informal discussion with a Clerk in the Table Office. I have not had that opportunity, which I certainly intend to have when I can leave the Chair.

Mr. Graham Riddick (Colne Valley)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have just been to the Table Office, because I would have been as dismayed as Opposition Members if indeed we were not allowed to table questions about national health service trust hospitals. The Table Office has confirmed to me that it is perfectly happy to accept all questions about NHS trusts. Furthermore, it has confirmed that no one—no Minister and no official from the Department of Health—has suggested or intimated an unwillingness to answer questions.

Mr. David Ashby (Leicestershire, North-West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that it was Mark Twain who spoke about "Lies, lies and more damned lies." Are we not hearing another distortion from Labour Members in respect of——

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not know whether the hon. Member was in his place yesterday, but I said that the word that he has used is not one that I wish to hear in the Chamber.

Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Arising from the quarter of an hour of questions within points of order is a serious principle. We have had a quarter of an hour's debate, initiated by the Labour party, in prime time on national health service trusts. Is not that an abuse of the procedures of the House by the party that wants to put porters before patients?

Mr. Speaker

I am not sure that that helps much. Points of order have been made from hon. Members on both sides of the House.

Sir Gerard Neale (Cornwall, North)

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a worthy point to remind anyone who is following our exchanges that, irrespective of whether the trusts continue in the instances to which reference has been made, all the patients treated under them will be treated under the national health service?

Mr. Speaker

These are matters of political controversy and are not points of order for the Chair. We should now get on with the business.