War Crimes Bill [Money] (Hansard, 18 March 1991)

§ Mr. Ivor Stanbrook (Orpington)
I should like to know how much the Bill will cost. Over what sort of period will money be expended for the investigation and bringing to trial of anyone who is prosecuted under it? How many officers of the Metropolitan police will be taken off their normal duties to pursue inquiries made under the Bill? That is the true cost of what we have done this evening. Police officers, who are urgently needed to fight crime elsewhere in the country, will be bogged down in investigations that will prove fruitless and are likely to be thrown out by any decent British jury.

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten)
I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) has asked me those questions. As the explanatory and financial memorandum clearly states, the expenditure incurred will depend on the number of trials.
My hon. Friend asked how many Metropolitan policemen would be needed for the special investigative unit that will have to be set up. The unit, which will indeed be set up by the Metropolitan police commissioner, will require nine officers and supporting staff. At current prices, the unit will cost about £742,000 a year. In Scotland, the equivalent work will be undertaken by the Crown Office. According to the current estimate, the investigative work will cost about £2.1 million in a full year, and the Crown Office in Scotland will incur equivalent expenditure if any trials are pursued there.
I cannot predict the number of trials that will be brought, but they will involve further expenditure on the costs of court rooms and legal aid, both of which, in England and Wales, are the responsibility of the Lord Chancellor's Department. In a full year, the costs might be upwards of £2.4 million. The provision of live evidence in England and Wales could cost between £1.5 million and £3 million in any one year.
Last but not least—in view of the importance of ensuring fair trials—is the legal aid fund. We estimate a cost of about £500,000. A low estimate of a full year's costs in England and Wales would be a minimum of £7 million, and the possibility of a maximum of £10 million. After enactment of the Bill, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will make additional funds available to the Metropolitan police to pay for any officers who are needed.

§ Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport)
My right hon. Friend has spoken with some confidence. Will he tell us how many prosecutions have been brought in relation to offences that took place between 45 and 50 years ago in other countries, on which he can base his figures?

§ Mr. Patten
We have consulted a number of authorities that have changed their legislation in the way that is being proposed. The United States authorities have done it rather differently, by seeking the use of extradition to the countries where people are accused. The costs have therefore been different there. We have, however, also taken advice from the prosecuting authorities in Australia and Canada, where a number of investigations have been made and a number of trials have been mounted. That international evidence, as well as the detailed material evidence that is available to the Lord Chancellor's Department, has led us to the figures that I have given.

§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)
Will my right hon. Friend be kind enough to give us the rough cost per prosecution, given the number of prosecutions that he thinks will result?

§ Mr. Patten
I cannot do that, because I have no idea how many prosecutions will be made in a full year. The cost will depend on the investigations, the decisions made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General under clause 1(3) and other important issues.

§ Sir Giles Shaw (Pudsey)
I understand the complexity of the issues. Surely, however, my right hon. Friend appreciates that many police forces—excluding the Metropolitan police force—are now engaged in trying to maintain establishments against heavy Government restrictions such as rate capping. Such expenditure as a consequence of the Bill can hardly be justified, in the light of the claims being made for genuine police expenditure in many other parts of the country.

§ Mr. Patten
This is the west Yorkshire question, to which I always look forward. I know how strongly my hon. Friend feels about the police force in his area, as do a number of my hon. Friends. The 43 police forces have to deal all the time with a particular range of burdens. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department has made available considerably increased funds. Moreover, in the coming year, 700 additional policemen and policewomen will be employed. However, no police force could reasonably have expected this special process to fall on its shoulders. That is why, with the Treasury's concurrence, special provision has been made for it.

§ Mr. Alistair Darling (Edinburgh, Central)
When we debated the War Crimes Bill in Committee last year, I believe that the Minister gave me the undertaking that he is giving to his hon. Friends—that if extraordinary expenditure is incurred by a police force outside the Metropolitan police, which is funded in a different way, the Government would consider reimbursement. My recollection may not be right and the Minister may therefore correct me. I did not check the point. Can he assure us that, if a police force incurs extraordinary expenditure, it will be reimbursed? This is of particular relevance to the Lothian and Borders police force in Scotland, which may be the primary police force with responsibility for investigations in Scotland. That expenditure will not be part of the Home Office budget.
The Minister will remember that in Committee the only concession that was made was that an annual report would be prepared giving an account of what had happened in terms of investigations, prosecutions and cost. Can he assure the House that, notwithstanding the fact that the 118 House cannot amend the Bill, due to the peculiar circumstances in which it is being given its Second Reading tonight, the Government will consider favourably an amendment in another place that would allow a report to be made so that both Houses can monitor the costs involved? I wonder whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aware of them, as he prepares his Budget speech. Given those costs, does not the Minister think that Parliament ought to be told how much is being spent each year? Will he repeat the undertaking that he gave to me 12 months ago? I believe that such an undertaking would be welcomed in all parts of the House.

§ Mr. Patten
Certainly I stand by the words that I uttered in Standing Committee. I have here the relevant Hansard reports of the debates. I remember that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling) spoke powerfully in favour of an annual report, or a series of reports, not just about the cost of the War Crimes Bill, should it pass through both Houses, but about how the war crimes legislation, if it comes into play, is conducted. I undertook at that stage, and I undertake again tonight, to continue to consider the possibilities of instituting a reporting mechanism. The costs of administration in respect of Scottish courts and the costs of legal aid in respect of the Scottish Home and Health Department would have to be met. I note in particular what the hon. Gentleman said about the Lothian and Borders police force.