South Africa

HC Deb 24 July 1991 vol 195 cc1150-1

8. Mr. Robert G. Hughes

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps Her Majesty's Government proposes to take to assist towards progress in achieving democracy on a non-racial basis in South Africa.

Mr. Hurd

We will continue to encourage all parties to begin talks on a new constitution for South Africa as soon as possible. We are helping the black opposition parties to take part in shaping the new democracy.

Mr. Hughes

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Recalling what he has already said this afternoon —that a movement towards democracy in South Africa has to be underpinned by an expansion in its economy —does he agree that if sanctions against South Africa are to be progressively lifted and if the country is to have access to international funds, the time available to the South African Government is not extensive—indeed, it is limited? It depends on what they do inside their country whether the international community continues to have faith that the South African Government will produce the democracy that we all want.

Mr. Hurd

I agree. What has happened so far is that the legal pillars of apartheid have been abolished. What now has to happen is multi-party constitutional talks to move towards a democratic constitution on the basis of one man one vote. At the same time, South Africans have to begin building a new nation and coping with the legacy of apartheid and all the poverty that went with it. That is the argument for investment, for economic growth and for wellwishers towards black South Africans encouraging, from now on, the building of a new nation—instead of thinking of new punitive measures.

Mr. Tony Banks

Does not everything revolve around achieving one person one vote in South Africa? Will the Foreign Secretary admit that until universal suffrage is achieved in South Africa and blacks have the vote there can be no question of dropping sanctions or of admitting South Africa to the civilised community of nations?

Mr. Hurd

I disagree. One man one vote is the basis on which state President de Klerk is proceeding—that is the purpose of the constitutional talks—but saying that there should be no investment and no growth between now and then would mean that on the day when there is one man one vote in South Africa the country will be impoverished way beyond what is necessary. It is now and not then that we and the South African Government should start rebuilding South Africa.

Sir George Gardiner

Will any aid that the Government give to any party or racial group in South Africa be made conditional on that party or group remaining part of the constitutional talks to achieve democracy in that country?

Mr. Hurd

Certainly, the help that we give in the political process is designed to equip those whom we are helping to take part in the democratic process. That is the whole purpose of it.

Mr. Anderson

The Foreign Secretary has recently travelled in South Africa. If he had opened his ears he would surely have heard that the effectiveness of any contribution that we can make to democracy-building has been much undermined because of the British Government's total identification with the white minority Government. Will he now seek to reduce some of that considerable damage to British interests, first by consulting the representatives of the majority in South Africa and, secondly, by ensuring that Britain does not take the lead in the EEC and in the Commonwealth in the destruction of sanctions?

Mr. Hurd

I sometimes wonder why nice people like the hon. Gentleman persist in living in such a time warp where South Africa is concerned. He can have no conception of what Mr. Mandela and other ANC leaders have told me and many others about the British aid programme in South Africa which, at £9.5 million, makes us the biggest donor of the lot. The money is overwhelmingly devoted to helping young people, especially in the townships. I have been warmly thanked for that. Of course, we consult the ANC about where it should go and when the ANC told us that it was time to relax the sporting sanction against cricket, we went along with it and helped it to achieve that.

Mr. Colvin

Does my right hon. Friend agree that as he attaches so much importance to these constitutional talks, it is extremely important that the state of Bophuthatswana participates in those talks, whatever he may think of the status of that state? Surely, if he wants to see what South Africa may be like after reaching the free society of non-racial democracies, he has to go no further than Bophuthatswana, which has been free of apartheid for many years.

Mr. Hurd

I do not think that many people would accept that Bophuthatswana is the model for the future of South Africa. I have no disrespect for its leader and there is nothing personal in this, but, for the reasons that I have already given, I do not believe that it would be right to enter into conversations with him.