§ '.—(1) The power of the Secretary of State to make regulations under section 13 requiring prescribed persons to furnish information may be exercised so as to require information to be furnished by persons employed in the service of the Crown or otherwise in the discharge of Crown functions.
§ (2) In such circumstances, and subject to such conditions, as may be prescribed, an inspector appointed under section 14 may enter any Crown premises for the purpose of exercising any powers conferred on him by that section.
§ (3) Where such an inspector duly enters any Crown premises for those purposes, section 14 shall apply in relation to persons employed in the service of the Crown or otherwise in the discharge of Crown functions as it applies in relation to other persons.
§ (4) Where a liable person is in the employment of the Crown, a deduction from earnings order may be made under section 30 in relation to that person; but in such a case subsection (8) of section 31 shall apply only in relation to the failure of that person to comply with any requirement imposed on him by regulations made under section 31:— [Mr. Jack.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
4.37 pm§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Michael Jack)I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The new clause extends the provision in clause 13 to the supplying of information by Crown servants and gives the inspectors appointed under section 14 powers to enter Crown property in prescribed circumstances.
§ Dr. Norman A Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow)The Minister's comments were so brief that I did not have a chance to intervene. With regard to new clause 2(3), which refers to an inspector entering Crown premises, will the Minister confirm that the definition of Crown premises includes, among other things, military bases?
The Minister knows why I ask that question. He and I have had extensive correspondence about the position of absent fathers serving with Her Majesty's forces. The Minister will recall a case that was brought to my attention by my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing); and I, too, have knowledge of such a case. I am anxious for the Minister to establish by way of the Official Report that the definition of Crown premises includes military bases within the United Kingdom. If that is the case, I shall view the new clause with considerable sympathy. There was a gap in regulations to protect children vis-à-vis absent fathers serving with the armed forces in the United Kingdom.
I go further and ask another question. Would a military base such as an Army camp or a ship moored to the quay at Rosyth or at Portsmouth for perhaps four weeks or so —I look to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for some protection on this matter—also fall within the confines of "Crown 519 premises"? What is the position of soldiers stationed in an Army camp in Germany? Would such a base fall within the definition of a United Kingdom posting? If that is the case, it surely means that those service men also fall within the terms of the new clause. Upon the Minister's answers rests my decision whether to call for a Division on the new clause.
§ Mr. JackThe hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) puts an onerous responsibility on my shoulders at this early stage in our proceedings. I shall do my best to respond in as much detail as I can. I have already done my best, through correspondence, to indicate to him the relationship between the way in which the Child Support Agency and its inspectors will operate and the way in which service personnel normally deal with questions of maintenance.
It is important to reflect for a moment on the nature of the inspector's work. The inspector is a seeker of information in circumstances in which normal methods of inquiry by telephone or letter are not providing the required result—in civilian terms, he would go to the pay office or personnel office by appointment. The hon. Gentleman will remember that we have carefully prescribed when an inspector may act. In terms of Crown property, it is certainly my understanding that he would be able to go into areas of military activity, but only to make the inquiries that I have mentioned.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned a hypothetical situation in relation to shipping. He will know that there is much law about shipping, which we may debate another time. The relevance of the hon. Gentleman's inquiry is that we are not likely to find, for example, naval pay officers on board ships in the way that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. As for inquiries about people abroad, that would more naturally be conducted by means of correspondence and inquiry. As I said by letter, commanding officers will be involved in assisting, as they do now in a co-operative manner, the seeking of information.
§ Dr. GodmanThe Minister knows that the armed services Acts, one of which was passed recently, allow armed services Ministers to make Orders in Council which, among other things, can take cognisance of developments in other legislation—in this case, the Child Support Bill. Will the Minister speak to his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to ensure that aspects of this legislation which impinge on the Armed Services Act 1991, where that Act itself deals with the care and protection of the children of armed forces personnel, are taken into consideration?
§ Mr. JackThe hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow has an unparalleled record in Standing Committee of rightly probing the way in which the measure affects our endeavours to seek maintenance from all absent parents with a particular responsibility, whatever they may do. I certainly would not try to double-guess the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question. However, so that he is not left in doubt, I undertake to raise the matter in the way that he requested and to write to him and again highlight the developing situation.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.