INFORMATION AS TO FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF DECISIONS (Hansard, 25 February 1991)

§ Mr. John Patten
I beg to move amendment No. 100, in page 51, line 10, after 'of, insert '—(a)'.

§ Mr. Speaker
With this, it will be convenient to consider Government amendments Nos. 101 and 102.

§ Mr. Patten
I remind the House that, when the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) moved new clause 4 last Wednesday, which was defeated on a Division, I said that the Government were bent on tabling their own amendments to achieve the same ends, to introduce matters of gender and race and to make clear the importance of avoiding discrimination in the criminal justice system. I commend the amendments to the House.

§ Mr. Sheerman
We welcome the Government's decision to make this little concession on race. Amendment No. 101 allows for ethnic monitoring not only of court decisions but of persons engaged in the administration of justice.
Amendment No. 101 refers to sex discrimination. We should recognise our important achievement in persuading the Government to act. We are having our cake and eating it again, but we are pleased that we pushed them sufficiently to make them go away and think about it.
It is important, however, to stress that the amendment goes only a little way towards achieving our objective. The anti-discrimination statement which we unsuccessfully tried to incorporate in the Bill is important. In the debate last week, the Minister generously agreed to meet a deputation, including hon. Members from both sides of the House, and to discuss over a cup of tea——

§ Mr. Patten
The kettle is always boiling.

§ Mr. Sheerman
If the kettle is always boiling, will the Minister see a deputation from the black lobby, who are concerned to put their case on the need for a declaratory clause?

§ Mr. Patten
I often see representatives of the ethnic minority groups and have done so throughout my years at the Home Office. I have seen the black lawyers and others, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes to bring another group as part of an all-party delegation to discuss the issues., the kettle is on the hob.

§ Mr. Sheerman
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the willingness that he has shown. Several people are involved, such as those associated with the Church and those associated with the law. It would not be an unmanageable delegation. Those people have asked me to put this case. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, last week the community and race relations unit of the British Council of Churches pointed out the need for a declaratory clause and stressed the importance of a statutory commitment in making the position plain to minority communities.

§ Mr. Patten
I have written to that body to discuss these issues directly, and have been in communication by correspondence with several organisations.

§ Mr. Sheerman
I thank the right hon. Gentleman. Now that he has accepted the point about a deputation coming for tea to talk about the importance of this issue, I believe that it will not be too late in another place to put that provision into the Bill. We debated this matter in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman was not entirely persuaded, but he went halfway. This declaration would reaffirm some positive elements in people's views on what the criminal justice system is like.
The Minister knows that what people feel about the criminal justice system is important. If I may draw a parallel with the fear of crime, it is important to affirm to people that the fear of crime is much greater than the reality. In the same way, we believe that it is important to affirm to ethnic minorities that the reality of racism in the criminal justice system is not so great as it is believed by their communities to be. The declaratory aspect of the Bill would go a long way to reassuring them. I accept that the Minister will keep a relatively open mind on that issue.