Cold Weather Payments

HC Deb 11 February 1991 vol 185 cc615-21 3.32 pm

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

(by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make a statement on the implementation of the cold weather payments.

The Minister for Social Security and Disabled People (Mr. Nicholas Scott)

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear at Question Time last Thursday, and as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security announced in a written answer to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen), the severe weather payments scheme had already come into operation last Thursday in nearly half the areas defined for the purpose, and that in order to help ensure that vulnerable groups take appropriate steps to keep warm, the seven-day qualifying period would be waived and the scheme brought into operation in every area. We have also increased the payment from £5 to £6 for any qualifying week. These changes have been put into effect.

Mr. Winnick

Is it not the case that not one single penny will go to any pensioner, however small his income may be, who is not on income support? That will cause tremendous difficulties. Perhaps the Minister saw the story about pensioners in yesterday's Sunday Express. Is it not also the case that, for those who are eligible and who have saved up for their funeral expenses, those savings will be taken into account in the £1,000? That is cruel and should be carefully considered by Ministers.

Is the Minister further aware that this £6 a week—I accept entirely that it is better than nothing—is a miserly sum and will in no way go substantially towards paying gas and electricity bills, about which pensioners are so worried? That is why so many pensioners do not keep their homes adequately heated, but wrap themselves up in blankets. For many of them, winter is just added misery —all winters, let alone the freezing one that we are going through now. Cannot a nation like ours find a more civilised way of helping the elderly through the winter?

Mr. Scott

Not only should we, but we have. When we moved from supplementary benefit to income support in 1988, some £417 million was included to help people on income support with their fuel bills. The House will be aware that, in the past two years, nearly £300 million extra has been found to help poorer pensioners with their living costs. This is an exceptionally cold weather scheme, and I believe that it is right to restrict it to those in greatest need— those on income support who have a child under five, a disabled person in the household or someone aged 60 or over.

Mr. Richard Holt (Langbaurgh)

Does my right hon. Friend accept that his announcement has been warmly welcomed throughout the north of England? It would be more warmly welcomed by many of my constituents if they were able to get their hands on the money but, because of strikes among Department of Social Security workers, those who are entitled to benefits are not getting them because their applications are not being processed. There is not much point in giving cold weather money in June, but I am told that it is estimated that that is when the Department will get round to paying it.

Mr. Scott

I obviously regret any circumstances when industrial action or anything else affects the ability of the Department to meet the needs of those who are entitled to our help. That ability is limited when we are faced with such circumstances. I can certainly scotch any rumours that people are unable to claim their exceptionally cold weather payments because of the lack of forms in our offices—as has been alleged by one or two people.

Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

How long will the scheme continue? Will it apply for the rest of this winter, rather than just for this present cold snap? If the cold weather returns later, between now and the summer, will people still be covered by the scheme? The most important thing that the Government could now do in addition to the welcome changes that they have made is to make the payments automatic because there are a lot of people who do not believe that they are eligible and a lot of people who are too proud to ask for the money and to fill in the requisite form. What consideration has been given to making the payments automatic? Will the Minister now change the regulations to make them so?

Mr. Scott

Let me answer the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question. No, the changes that were announced last week were in respect of the seven-day period, because of the general and excessive nature of the cold spell that the country was enduring. In response to that excessive weather, we showed a flexible and common-sense approach to the problems. As from now, the normal rules will apply, but obviously we shall carefully monitor what is happening throughout the country in terms of cold weather to see what may be necessary in the future.

Mr. David Martin (Portsmouth, South)

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the payment is better than the nothing that people got from any previous Labour Government? Will my right hon. Friend also confirm that he is co-operating fully with Help the Aged, Age Concern and other charitable organisations at this time?

Mr. Scott

I cannot quite agree with my hon. Friend that nothing at all happened under the previous Administration, but their arrangements were very discretionary and very complex for claimants to understand. I underline my hon. Friend's point that it is important to recognise that the response to the cold weather does not rest entirely with the benefits system. There are things that people can be advised to do in terms of diet, clothing and insulation that are at least as important as benefits. I welcome the co-operation among the Government, local authorities and voluntary organisations to make that response as effective as possible.

Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead)

Can the Minister assure the House that, during the cold spell, no poor people froze to death? If he cannot, does not that suggest that there is something wrong with the number of people who qualify for the scheme and the amount of money that the Government pay out?

Mr. Scott

I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a serious interest in this. I can see no reason at all why someone who takes up his entitlement to benefit, who listens to the advice of the voluntary organisations, who uses the "keep well, keep warm" health line and who also has the benefit of good neighbours—at a time of such weather it is very important—

Mr. Field

Can you give an assurance that no poor people froze to death?

Mr. Scott

Of course I cannot give the assurance that no one, perhaps by neglect or by accident, will lose his life. In any case, we all know that during winter mortalities increase. The number suffering in that way, however, has steadily decreased under both Governments in recent years, and I look forward to it decreasing still further. That is the experience throughout the northern hemisphere, and we want to see the rate diminish still further.

Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries)

I warmly welcome what my right hon. Friend said about these payments. May I ask him, however, to look again at the areas for which payments are triggered by individual weather stations? Does he accept that anomalies and a great deal of resentment can be aroused simply by the side of the line on which one lives? Does he not agree that it would be better to trigger cold weather payments on a countrywide basis and at the first opportunity?

Mr. Scott

I do not agree with my hon. Friend's proposition. He may know that regulations introduced recently make the localities covered more sensitive to the weather stations that trigger cold weather payments. Certainly, in Scotland, a number of changes were made in that direction. The Meteorological Office co-operated with us in an exercise across the entire country to ensure the greatest possible sensitivity.

Mr. Ernie Ross (Dundee, West)

The Minister must understand that the system is not working. For instance, people in my area have to look across the River Tay and well into Fife—to Leuchars—for their trigger point. Does not the Minister agree that it would make more sense to use local authority areas to determine the trigger points for these payments?

Mr. Scott

No, because the meteorological offices across across the country have a simple, regular and computerised means of ascertaining temperatures.[Interruption.] Of course I am prepared to consider representations concerning stations that trigger in hon. Members' localities. Indeed, we have already responded to many of those concerns.

Mr. Simon Coombs (Swindon)

Does my hon. Friend agree that, despite all the efforts that are being made to publicise this scheme, far too many old people are still unaware of their entitlement to benefit? Will he tell the House what he is doing, with the aid of organisations like Help the Aged, to draw to the attention of elderly people their rights under this scheme, which is so widely welcomed?

Mr. Scott

As my hon. Friend knows, Help the Aged is operating a freephone system under the "keep well, keep warm" campaign. I was delighted over the weekend to notice that telephone number being flashed up on the television screen during broadcasts. In addition, it is being announced regularly by local radio stations, and advertisements are appearing in the local press. I welcome all that, because I want to ensure that everyone who needs this help gets it.

Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray)

But does not the Minister realise that comments from himself, from the Prime Minister and from the Secretary of State for Social Security over the last few days clearly show that the Government recognise that the current scheme is totally ineffective—that it is not working for the benefit of the poor, the elderly and the needy in our society? Will he, having made that concession, give a commitment to review the whole situation and the operation of the system to ensure that those people who are desperately in need of heating during the winter months will receive payments automatically and continuously? Does he accept that, particularly in Scotland, some irritation is experienced by those of us who, having for two decades pushed for a cold weather allowance, now suddenly discover that ministerial chilblains seem to be more effective than our rational arguments?

Mr. Scott

I believe that the Government were right last week to respond flexibly to what I have called the excessive and general nature of the cold weather that affected the country as a whole. I can certainly give the hon. Lady an undertaking that when this winter is over we shall review the system and its operation. However, I should be surprised if the course adopted were to turn out as she has suggested.

Mr. Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)

So that we may find out for ourselves how effective the Government's scheme for letting people know of this excellent arrangement has been, will my right hon. Friend, as part of his review, publish the take-up percentage that the Department feels is appropriate? Only if such a figure is made available shall we be able to find out whether the complaints that we hear are justified. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need facts, not just opinions?

Mr. Scott

I shall certainly have a look to see what further information might be given about the workings of the present publicity campaign.

Ms. Hilary Armstrong (Durham, North-West)

Those of us from other parts of the country are sometimes relieved when there is cold weather in London, because it seems to be the only time when the Government recognise that there are problems for elderly people. Will the Government ensure that they conduct a thorough review of the scheme and other means of supporting elderly and vulnerable people during the cold weather? The Minister has not attempted to address the fact that, in this country, we lose more people during cold weather spells than any other comparable country in the northern hemisphere. Why does that happen? Will he commit the Government to resourcing research, so that we can find out why it happens and take appropriate action to stop it?

Mr. Scott

I have already said that, when we come to the end of this spell of cold weather and, more importantly, this winter, we shall review the workings of the scheme and the pattern of support generally. The House is concentrating too narrowly on the exceptionally cold-weather scheme and forgetting other help given to people.

Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher)

Will my right hon. Friend note the welcome in my constituency for the Prime Minister's early announcement of the provision of the payments last Thursday, which went down very well, as people did not have to worry over the weekend? Will he stress that it is not just a matter of payments, but that there is a problem of how old people are looked after by others in their community during the cold weather? Will he encourage organisations and neighbours to work with old people even more? Will he note that, under the latest arrangements, electricity companies are less likely to cut people off, and there are new arrangements for phasing payment of bills over a much longer period?

Mr. Scott

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks about the government's response. It is certainly true that fuel companies have said that people should not be fearful of spending money to keep themselves warm at present and will be prepared to make arrangements for staged payments later for any large bills produced. I am delighted to endorse my hon. Friend's point that it is important for voluntary organisations to play a major part in the exercise.

Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting)

Although the Minister is right to stress the need for proper food and clothing, surely he is aware that the real test is people's ability to keep the heat on in their homes as long as they want, without worrying about the cost. Will he look again at the point about cash limits made by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick)? Many people—I met pensioners in my constituency this morning—having read the small print, believe that the announcement was a con? When they saw the record of what the Prime Minister said here last Thursday, they thought, "Thank goodness, something will be done for us." However, many people with a small amount of money—£1,000, which we all know is not a great deal—will not use it because they are scared to do so. Sadly, the scheme will in no way help such people who are in urgent need.

Mr. Scott

The hon. Gentleman knows the respect I have for him, but that response was uncharacteristically excessive. I believe that the capital rules provide a sensible way of ensuring that those people who get help are those who most need it—those who do not have spare resources to deploy to meet extra fuel costs.

Mr. Kenneth Hind (Lancashire, West)

Does my right hon. Friend accept that many Conservative Members are sick of the Opposition's carping, and greatly respect the speed with which the Department acted to relieve the misery of many old people who would have suffered a great deal as a consequence of the cold? Many of those people will find it reassuring to know that they can turn up the heat, secure in the knowledge that they will be warm. How many people actually qualify for the scheme announced last week?

Mr. Scott

It is very difficult to put any precise figure to the number who qualify. I can give the exact categories of people who will qualify—those people who are on income support, who satisfy the capital limits for the payments, have a child under five, a disabled person or somebody aged more than 60 in their household.

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West)

Does the Minister recall that, when this absurd and wasteful scheme was last put to the test, the cost of advertising alone was the equivalent of 83,000 severe weather payments? Is he aware that, with the exception of the amount of saving, all the information is available for the Department to have a fully automatic scheme? By raising the savings limit, the Government could introduce a scheme which was assured, under which payments were guaranteed, and which would cost only slightly more. That would greatly decrease the disgraceful number of winter deaths.

Mr. Scott

I have explained why I believe that the capital limits are a sensible part of the scheme. With regard to the criticism for making it more widely known and for increasing awareness, I have been pressed from many parts of the House to increase that rather than diminish it, as the hon. Gentleman suggested.

Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne)

Will my right hon. Friend accept that such swift action does great credit to his Department and to the Government? Does he agree that this help should be seen in its true context—yet more help to poorer pensioners, on top of the £300 million that has been given in the past two years?

Mr. Scott

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. I mentioned earlier the extra help that is being given to poorer pensioners and the incorporation of help with fuel costs which we announced when we introduced income support. It is an exceptional scheme, and this winter it has responded flexibly and helpfully to the needs of people who need that help.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

Is the Minister aware that this is nothing more than a seven-day wonder? Did he see an old lady aged 76 being interviewed on television the other day? She got £53 a week, and was £2 above the level that enabled her to qualify. Is not the truth of the matter that the Minister dare not give the figures for pensioners who qualify, because well over 90 per cent. of all old-age pensioners will not qualify under the scheme? This is another Tory confidence trick.

Mr. Scott

I will not weary the House by repeating the vulnerable categories who will receive this important extra help, on top of the help that has already been given to pensioners.

Mr. Michael Meacher (Oldham, West)

Having been panicked last week into lifting the seven consecutive days requirement, is the Minister really not going to lift it again this week, when the temperature is just as low or even lower? Is it not scandalous and paltry that this concession is not being continued as long as the freezing cold lasts? Is he not ashamed that this minor concession still excludes the most vulnerable group—homeless people and those sleeping rough in the snow, many of whom are without accommodation because the Secretary of State removed from them the benefit to pay for it?

Since, as many of my hon. Friends have said, millions of the poorest pensioners, families with children and disabled people are still excluded from the scheme, which is riddled with holes, and since the Secretary of State has done nothing since the last bitter cold snap four years ago to produce a long-term solution, will he not now introduce heating and insulation payments automatically for all pensioners and others on income support who are at risk throughout the cold winter months?

Mr. Scott

I have been facing the hon. Gentleman across the Floor of the House for too long to expect him to show any recognition of any good that the Government do. His own record was pathetic when he held responsibility for these matters. We were right to concentrate on helping the most vulnerable people during this excessively cold weather. I have undertaken to keep the situation under review. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment answered a private notice question last Friday, in which he outlined the help that the Department of the Environment are giving homeless or roofless people. That must be considered with the announcement that we have made.