§ 7. Dr. Michael ClarkTo ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what help has been given to Poland and Czechoslovakia to assist them with the setting up of social security systems.
§ Mr. JackBoth Poland and Czechoslovakia are working to restructure their social security systems to be based on a contributory principle and in response to requests for help in that endeavour our officials have visited both countries. In addition, three senior officials from Czechoslovakia recently spent time visiting several of our offices.
§ Dr. ClarkWhen discussing social security systems with representatives from Poland and Czechoslovakia, has my hon. Friend brought to their attention the so-called workfare system in the United States? Does he agree that workfare would avoid the Czechs and the Poles inheriting the extremes of our social security system and perhaps help them avoid having a litter-strewn country like ours by allowing more people to work for the benefit that they are receiving?
§ Mr. JackI listened carefully to my hon. Friend, but I should make it clear that we have been asked to assist Poland, Czechoslovakia and other eastern European countries in terms of methodologies and systems required to reconstruct and develop a social security system. In many eastern European countries, the concept of unemployment was officially unknown but they are now having to deal with that problem. It is not for us to determine what their policy should be, but to help them to deliver an efficient form of benefit where they believe that that is required.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursHas the Minister made it clear that computerisation in this area in the United Kingdom has not been too successful, that there are many errors and that those countries in eastern Europe should be aware of that when they decide what technology they want to purchase? While I recognise that those problems can be resolved, will the Minister assure us that those countries will not be misled into buying equipment the software for which breaks down, as it has done in the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. JackI admire the hon. Gentleman's attempt to juxtapose problems with our social security system with those in eastern Europe. However, the hon. Gentleman may be somewhat behind the times in terms of the development of our information technology. In my constituency, the centre for the information technology services agency, which I visited recently, has palpably demonstrated the great improvements in the subsequent development of the local office system in this country. If the hon. Gentleman had listened to my earlier reply, he would have learnt that in social security centres in places like Ashton-in-Makerfield, we are already seeing dramatic drops in error rates when dealing with benefit. I am sure that those lessons will not be lost on those eastern European countries that are seeking our help enthusiastically in the area of information technology.