Administration of Justice (Hansard, 12 December 1991)

§ 1. Mr. McAvoy
To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his plans to heighten confidence in the administration of justice.

§ The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Brooke)
The Government's strategy is to provide a criminal justice system which maintains the rule of law and creates in Northern Ireland the conditions for a fair and just administration.

§ Mr. McAvoy
That answer smacks of nothing less than smug complacency. If everything is for the best in Castlereagh, why are there so many out-of-court settlements in actions for damages brought by former detainees?

§ Mr. Brooke
Many factors enter into account when the police authority needs to respond to complaints of that sort. The decisions taken are taken on legal advice.

§ Mr. Peter Robinson
Did the Secretary of State read in the memoirs of Dr. Garrett FitzGerald that during the negotiations on the Anglo-Irish Agreement the Government had been prepared to allow judges from the courts in the Irish Republic to sit on the Bench in Northern Ireland as part of what are described as mixed courts, but that that was stopped because of the resistance of then then Lord Chief Justice, Lord Lowry? Is the view expressed then to Dr. FitzGerald—that this was a matter which could be considered as soon as Lord Lowry passed on—being considered by the Government now?

§ Mr. Brooke
The nature of my duties both in the Province and in this House means that I have not yet had the pleasure and privilege of reading Dr. FitzGerald's book, but I shall take on hearsay what the hon. Gentleman says about this entry. The issue has not been discussed with me during my time as Secretary of State at any 976 conference under the Anglo-Irish Agreement, and I am perfectly clear about what response I would give if it were raised.

§ Mr. Trimble
The primary function of the administration of justice is to apprehend and punish the guilty. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, contrary to statements made from time to time by Northern Ireland Ministers, the administration of justice in Northern Ireland is signally failing to do that? In 1985 there were 24 convictions for murder, but there were only eight in 1990. Moreover, the people being convicted are very much from the second and third XI. Does the Secretary of State not realise that that conspicuous failure, which is clear to the people of Northern Ireland, is undermining the confidence of the great majority, and that that is pregnant with considerable consequences?

§ Mr. Brooke
I understand what the hon. Gentleman says about the nature of the charge laid against certain people and the roles that they may have played in particular crimes. That is, I fear, testimony to the experience of terrorists in making certain that the people who commit the crimes are protected by their colleagues. But I am delighted to tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that 112 people have been charged with murder or attempted murder in the course of this year. That is an advance on the previous year and a testimony to the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

§ Mr. Stanbrook
Would it not be helpful if we used existing machinery more effectively? For example, the reciprocal legislation providing for extraterritorial jurisdiction does not seem much used. In the 16 years in which we have had our part of the legislation, we have applied for only 31 people to be tried in the Republic, of whom only 16 were convicted and the Irish Republic has not applied for any such cases at all. Surely there is a lot of ground here to make up if we are to make the machinery of justice as between the two countries more effective.

§ Mr. Brooke
The particular question that my hon. Friend raises is for my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, but I am grateful to him for reminding, me of the precise statistics with which it is always sensible to be armed in any conference on the agreement.

§ Mr. McNamara
Will the Secretary of State explain why the Government are still being so stubborn about the video recording of interrogation procedures at Castlereagh and elsewhere? Is he aware of the concern expressed by Amnesty International and the United Nations committee on torture, and that it was recommended by Lord Colville, the Government's own adviser, and by the independent police complaints body and the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights? It is important that the Royal Ulster Constabulary should be seen to be in the forefront of the fight against terrorism with the support and confidence of the whole community. This is one important way in which that could be achieved. Will the Government now reconsider their decision not to introduce video recording of interrogation procedures?

§ Mr. Brooke
No matter what arrangements were to be made, the Government believe that the introduction of video recording of interviews with terrorists suspects could seriously jeopardise the process of investigating crime. However, that was a matter which SACHR raised with me 977 only this week and made it clear that it was a subject to which it would return. It is therefore a subject on which I expect to be in continuing dialogue.

§ Mr. Kilfedder
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that an essential element of the administration of justice is police primacy? If so, will he ensure that a police officer accompanies every military patrol whenever humanly possible? Will he also consider, as a provisional measure, initiating steps which would enable a magistrate or judge to supervise the interrogation of a defendant charged with a terrorist offence?

§ Mr. Brooke
The Government, police and military authorities are committed to ensure that, where feasible and sensible—the hon. Gentleman will know what those words mean in the context of the Province—Army patrols likely to come into contact with the public are accompanied by an RUC officer. That reflects the policy that the RUC is in the lead in the fight against terrorism. However, it must be recognised that at the current level of terrorist threat, full accompaniment of all patrols could be achieved only at the expense of aborting necessary anti-terrorist operations with a consequent increase in terrorist activity.
On the the hon. Gentleman's second question, he will know that work is proceeding on a statutory code under the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991.