HC Deb 03 December 1991 vol 200 cc129-31
3. Mr. Brazier

To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received from NUPE and COHSE on the patients charter.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell)

Two representations were received yesterday.

Mr. Brazier

Is not it sad to hear that until yesterday no representations had been made on the patients charter by NUPE and COHSE? Does he agree that it shows that the unions do not represent their ordinary members who, in hospitals such as the Kent and Canterbury hospital in my constituency, strive for every possible improvement in care of the patient?

Mr. Dorrell

My hon. Friend is to be congratulated. It is perhaps not entirely a coincidence that his question was due to be answered today and the representations from the two trade unions arrived in the Department yesterday. We know something about the views of Mr. Bickerstaffe because he gave a substantial interview to the New Statesman and Society recently. He did not mention the patients charter, but he gave us some other insights into his approach to the problems. He was asked: What are the likely expectations of your members with Labour in power? He answered: We hope the national minimum wage—currently £3.40 an hour for 40 hours before stoppages—will rise. When asked what relationship there was between NUPE and Labour's leadership, Mr. Bickerstaffe said: I meet with the leader, with John Smith, Robin Cook, when necessary. My hon. Friend might like to speculate about who decides when it is necessary.

Mr. Canavan

Will the Minister pay tribute to the distinguished record of COHSE and NUPE in providing excellent standards of patient care over many years? That dates back to long before the Government's so-called patients charter was ever dreamt of. Will the Minister respond positively to COHSE's request for a ministerial meeting to discuss certain aspects of the patients charter?

Mr. Dorrell

I will gladly give credit to the unstinting support that the staff of the national health service give to the principles of the NHS. Without it we could not possibly deliver the high quality of service that we do.

However, the role of COHSE, the trade union which sponsors the hon. Gentleman, in delivering that quality of care is, at best, marginal.

Mr. Sayeed

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is regrettable that the same unions that stopped the sick from getting to hospital in 1978 and 1979 are showing the same callous disregard—or at least their leaderships are doing so —for the needs of patients? Does he hope that Labour Members of Parliament who are sponsored by COHSE and NUPE will prevail on those unions to put the patients first?

Mr. Dorrell

Yes, I hope that the Labour party is anxious that reference to patients should be one of the priorities of the unions which claim to represent health service staff. In the same interview from which I quoted, Mr. Bickerstaffe went on to repeat the high priority that NUPE attaches to increasing the minimum wage—a proposal which the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) has already said would cost the NHS between £400 million and £500 million.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Would the Minister work for £80 a week?

Mr. Dorrell

Mr. Bickerstaffe said that he wanted to see that bill increased. He goes on to say: We would like to have argued"—(Interruption.]

Mr. Campbell-Savours

The Minister is a hypocrite.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Even though that remark was made from a sedentary position, the hon. Gentleman must withdraw it.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Nobody in the House would work for £80 a week. I withdraw the remark.

Mr. Dorrell

Mr. Bickerstaffe goes on to repeat: We would like to have argued for a higher minimum wage, for example, but the party has said no, there are others —pensioners and so on. Even in that context, Mr. Bickerstaffe does not mention patients.

Mrs. Heal

The health service unions, like members of the public, are worried that the commitments in the patients charter to receive health care on the basis of clinical need, regardless of ability to pay are being breached daily. The promises made have already been broken. Do not Conservative Members, the Secretary of State and his health team agree with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame J. Knight), who said in a newspaper article that: All in all, it was, and is, wrong to breach the principle that a health check within the NHS should be free"? The question that the Secretary of State must answer is —[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mrs. Heal

Conservative Members do not like to be reminded of what is going wrong. The Secretary of State has said that he wants a national health service that is well informed of people's needs and preferences. Does the Minister agree that people need and prefer a free eye test?

Mr. Dorrell

Once again, the Labour Front Bench is raising the red herring of charges. The commitment to deliver a health service on the basis of clinical need and not of ability to pay is common ground between both sides of the House. Any charge within the NHS requires a statutory authorisation. There are three important bases for such charges, and two of them were introduced by the Labour party.